The next item of business is a debate on motion S6M-20185, in the name of Jackson Carlaw, and lodged on behalf of the Citizen Participation and Public Petitions Committee, on petition PE2018, to recognise the value of swimming pools and provide financial relief to help keep pools open. Members who wish to participate in the debate should press their request-to-speak buttons.
I call Jackson Carlaw to speak to and move the motion on behalf of the Citizen Participation and Public Petitions Committee.
16:23
How exciting it is, on the first day back, to be able to bring this debate to the chamber. I begin by introducing petition PE2018, which was lodged by Helen Plank, on behalf of Scottish Swimming, and by saying that the committee was absolutely unanimous and united in the focus that we brought to bear on the petition and in bringing it before Parliament today.
I thank the clerks for all the hard work that they have done, and particularly for their assistance with my speaking notes. I apologise now for the fact that the speech sounds a little bit like the play what Ernie Wise wrote, in that it contains just about every possible hidden reference to water and to swimming. If anyone has a gong that they want to bang, they can count up and see whether they can earn some cash during the course of my contribution—I challenge them to come up with the appropriate figure.
Let me dive right in and speak to the motion in my name.
“There is a real ethos of swimming in Scotland, and we are starting to take over the British Swimming team.”
Those are the words of swimmer Duncan Scott OBE, who was Scotland’s most decorated athlete at the Paris Olympics in 2024 and is a remarkably impressive ambassador for his sport. Had he decided to give up swimming, he could crawl into a career in politics, I think, and make the argument for swimming still more effective. However, the following are also his words:
“when I look back on my career as an athlete and at some of the pools that have been part of that journey, I know that Alloa Leisure Bowl and Bo’ness swimming pool have both now closed ... I wonder where the next athletes are going to come from.”—[Official Report, Citizen Participation and Public Petitions Committee, 23 April 2025; c 6, 5.]
Duncan spoke to the committee during our round-table discussions on 25 April 2025, which focused on the petition that was lodged by Helen Plank. The petition calls on the Scottish Parliament to urge the Scottish Government to help to keep our swimming pools and leisure centres open by providing financial investment for pools. I know that we are always calling for financial investment in this, that and the next thing. However, the more evidence the committee heard in respect of this being an island nation and, as I will touch on later, Scotland having the highest rate of deaths from drowning of any component of the United Kingdom, the more we felt that the importance of swimming cannot be overstated.
I acknowledge everyone else who provided evidence in the round tables—John Lunn, chief executive of Scottish Swimming; Derek McGown, a coach at the East Kilbride amateur swimming club; Abi Thomson, a young volunteer programme champion at Scottish Swimming; Dianne Breen, coached programmes manager at Sport Aberdeen; Kirsty Doig, director of the Darcey Sunshine Project; Jillian Gibson, policy manager for sport and physical activity at the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities; and Ben Lamb, chief executive of West Lothian Leisure, which is also known as Xcite. I thank them all.
I also commend the petitioner for the passion and determination with which she has pursued the aims of her petition for the past three years, with the support of members of this Parliament such as Liz Smith and others, and for the precise and matter-of-fact evidence that she provided to the committee on behalf of Scottish Swimming. Alongside all the evidence that we heard during the round tables, that persuaded the committee of the need to make—here it comes—a bigger splash and bring the matter to the attention of the whole Parliament. It was at that point in preparing my speech that I got echoes of the Morecambe and Wise “play what I wrote”.
The issue at the core of the petition is that increased operating costs, squeezed budgets and ageing venues are putting pools across Scotland at risk of closure. In a period of less than a year after the petition was lodged, five swimming pools were closed with no prospect of them reopening. The committee heard about a swimming pool whose operating costs rose by 107 per cent in three years, but costs are rising—at varying degrees—across the board. The high operating costs of swimming pools prompt pool operators to pass the costs on to consumers, which makes swimming less affordable.
In many cases, nearly 90 per cent of the income that is generated and used to run swimming pools and sports facilities comes from the customers, with the other 10 per cent or so coming from the local authority. We heard that, historically, the level of local authority funding was a lot higher but it has inevitably been forced down due to pressures on funding over the years.
In the Government’s responses to petitions, it often indicates that such-and-such action that has been requested is a matter for the relevant authorities. However, those authorities do not operate in a funding vacuum, nor do they operate in a policy vacuum. In writing to the committee, COSLA highlighted that there have been real-terms cuts to core revenue and capital funding for councils, as well as increasingly ring-fenced Scottish Government funding. Because of that, cuts have fallen disproportionately on non-statutory services including swimming pools and wider culture and leisure services. We all know that from our local constituency experience. COSLA suggests that
“Councils require fair and flexible funding in order to protect these vital community services and facilities.”
While I acknowledge the point that Mr Carlaw narrates on behalf of COSLA, does he accept that last year’s budget gave a real-terms increase to local government funding? I recognise that pressures remain within local government, but does he agree that it would not be fair to say anything other than that increase has been provided?
The point that COSLA and others made to us is that, with so many different areas being—appropriately—ring fenced, the capacity for discretionary action by councils is limited, and the cuts are falling on swimming pools and other such facilities.
The core of the petition may appear to be just another matter of public finance. However, the waters run much deeper than that. The committee heard that pools are closing despite the on-going and continually growing demand for swimming. The 2023 Scottish household survey shows swimming to be the highest participation sport for women and for people with disabilities.
We also heard—this is shocking in many ways—that 40 per cent of children in Scotland leave primary school unable to swim. We heard that 75 per cent of P4 pupils who learn to swim are total beginners, with the figure reaching a staggering 90 to 100 per cent for pupils from deprived areas. Those statistics become striking given that, as I have said, the committee also heard that Scotland’s accidental drowning rate is the highest of the United Kingdom nations. Pool closures therefore have a significant impact on people in Scotland and on their chances to not just thrive but, literally, survive.
Jackson Carlaw mentioned pool closures. I am sure that he will be encouraged to learn that the Alloa Leisure Bowl—if he ever saw it, he would realise how inappropriate it was as a swimming venue in the first place—is to be replaced next year by a new wellbeing centre in Alloa, which will include a swimming pool.
On local government finance, will Jackson Carlaw acknowledge that the pressure that private finance initiative payments put on councils—especially on their education and sport budgets—is a bigger factor than any other when it comes to what they can afford to do on swimming?
I have to say to Mr Brown that that was not part of the extensive evidence that the committee heard. All who gave evidence talked of the pressures on funding and, as I said, the ring fencing of funding and the fact that that impacts directly on their discretionary funding—and that swimming pools and sports facilities are affected as a result. Obviously, I am delighted if there is a swallow, but it is not a summer.
Unfortunately, that is the issue that we have, and it ought to be of concern to all members, because we are talking about the lives of people who will be unable to swim, in an island nation in which, disgracefully, we have the highest accidental drowning rate.
The committee convener makes a powerful point about life saving, particularly in an educational context—teaching children the confidence to swim not just in a pool but in open water, and the appropriate safeguards to have in place for dealing with challenging conditions in open-water swimming.
That was very much the view that the committee took and is taken by some councils—albeit increasingly fewer, because of the pressures and considerations that I have detailed.
Both the committee and our witnesses acknowledge the role of local authorities and the importance of local democracy. However, we have heard that the current approach is piecemeal and demonstrably inadequate. Our witnesses advocated for the establishment of a national task force to explore how swimming pools can be kept open, how access can be maintained for people and what sustainable models can be developed for the future. Such a task force would be made up of local authorities, trusts, sportscotland and Scottish Swimming—and, of course, would be under the leadership of the Scottish Government. The committee has asked the Scottish Government what consideration it has given to potentially establishing such a task force. However, in my view at least, the Government is yet to answer that substantive question.
Our witnesses whole-heartedly supported the introduction of a statutory duty to ensure that every child in Scotland has the opportunity to learn to swim. I think that that was what Paul Sweeney was alluding to. Scottish Swimming has lobbied hard to get swimming back on to school curricula, and we understand that there is cross-party support for that.
The Government’s position is that education authorities and individual schools are best placed to decide the content of their lessons, and that there may be specific challenges for schools when it comes to distance from or access to swimming pools. To the committee, that argument does not hold much water, given that maintaining wide access to swimming pools is precisely what the petition is trying to achieve. I therefore hope to hear the minister providing more substantive responses on both the potential establishment of a task force and the introduction of a statutory duty to have swimming as part of school curricula, as advocated by our witnesses.
The committee is persuaded that the amplitude and seriousness of the situation demand much more than business-as-usual “engagement” between stakeholders and a treading-water “commitment” to working together.
You need to conclude.
They demand a clear plan for the whole of Scotland and action to implement such a plan.
In the absence of support, swimming pools across the country will find themselves in deeper water. If they do, keeping their heads above it may well become impossible. That is the challenge that we all have to rise to, face and meet.
I move,
That the Parliament notes public petition PE2018 on helping to keep swimming pools and leisure centres open by providing financial investment for pools.
I advise members that we are already running a little behind schedule, so I will have to keep members to their speaking time allocations.
16:35
I acknowledge the motion that has been lodged, and I thank Jackson Carlaw, the committee convener, for setting out his case with his usual rhetorical flourishes. Whether today’s flourishes are by his hand or someone else’s, I recognise the good humour with which he set out the case; I also recognise that beneath the humour is a serious issue that we agree needs to be contended with. I also thank Helen Plank, Duncan Scott and all those who contributed to the committee’s work on the petition.
As the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care, I firmly believe that sport and physical activity should be accessible to everyone. Every individual deserves the opportunity to participate and have access to facilities that make that possible. Swimming pools are far more than buildings filled with water; they are important community spaces and places that promote health, safety, social connection and personal growth.
Although all forms of physical activity contribute to mental and physical wellbeing, swimming offers unique benefits. It provides low-impact exercise that engages almost every muscle group, making it suitable for people of all ages and abilities. Swimming improves cardiovascular health, flexibility and lung capacity.
Pools provide essential support for recovery and rehabilitation through hydrotherapy, which is particularly effective for conditions such as osteoarthritis, chronic fatigue and fibromyalgia, thereby helping to reduce pain, improve circulation and ease stiffness.
Beyond physical benefits, swimming pools offer a calming environment that supports mental health. The rhythm of movement in the water, the focus on breathing and the feeling of weightlessness can create a calming and supportive environment. Swimming has been shown to reduce stress, anxiety and symptoms of depression.
The cabinet secretary has said that swimming saves health and social care money and promotes wellbeing. However, Jedburgh and Selkirk pools are being shut and those communities are being called on. Will the cabinet secretary look at the percentage of the Barnett consequentials of the £63 million that is being provided in England to support pools and bring that to Scotland?
We have passed over significant Barnett consequentials, as I set out in my intervention on Mr Carlaw, in an increase to local government funding, which I will come to in more detail. Those particular decisions need to be taken locally; I am more than happy to consider any approaches on individual cases, but they are for local decision makers to take forward.
Public leisure facilities play a crucial role in tackling loneliness. Activities such as aquatic exercise classes for older adults not only improve balance and strength but foster social connections, which often extend past the pool to the cafe and the wider community.
For children and young people, swimming pools offer more than just exercise. They offer the chance to learn a life-saving skill, as Mr Carlaw and Mr Sweeney have set out. Pools build confidence and a sense of achievement. We believe that every child should have the opportunity to learn to swim. It can save lives and lead to a lifetime of enjoyment through swimming, as Mr Scott highlighted in his evidence. However, we know that there are significant inequalities in access to swimming lessons, which is why we funded swimming pilots in partnership with sportscotland and Scottish Swimming. The pilots demonstrated that the school swimming framework is the most effective model for enabling children to learn to swim, particularly in addressing poverty-related barriers to access.
Scottish Swimming and Scottish Water recently marked 10 years of the learn to swim programme, which is a joint initiative delivered by 38 local aquatic partners. Progress has been remarkable: participation has grown from 53,000 people in 2017 to more than 83,000 in 2024. Even more encouraging is the increase in participation by children from Scotland’s more deprived communities, which has grown from 10 per cent in 2018 to 16 per cent today. That is a real and measurable impact, widening access and delivering social value. The success of the programme is a testament to the dedication of Scottish Swimming, Scottish Water and local partners. Their collective efforts deserve recognition, especially given the setbacks during the pandemic that affected water safety attainment and swimming instruction.
We also acknowledge the challenges faced by operators of sports and leisure facilities, first during the pandemic and then through the energy crisis, which created significant financial pressures. Rising operational, energy, building and transport costs have placed real strain on resources, making it harder to heat pools and buildings and maintain infrastructure. Although the funding of local sports and leisure facilities, including pools, is the responsibility of local authorities, we recognise the importance of support. Our policy on local authority spending is to allow authorities the financial freedom to operate independently. As such, the vast majority of funding is provided by means of a block grant.
As I set out to Mr Carlaw, the 2025-26 budget recognises the importance of local government and provides local authorities with a record funding package of more than £15.1 billion in 2025-26, which is a real-terms increase of 5.5 per cent. The Government has made a significant commitment to Scotland’s sporting future. Since April 2007, sportscotland has invested more than £211 million to help sports clubs, community groups, local authorities, sports governing bodies and other organisations in delivering new and upgraded sporting facilities across the country. That investment has helped to create spaces where people can come together, be active and thrive.
However, we understand that significant challenges remain. That is why we commissioned sportscotland to undertake a comprehensive review of the condition and long-term investment needs of Scotland’s sporting infrastructure. The report will be published shortly and will sit alongside the 2023 swimming pool review, providing vital information to help us make informed decisions collectively. The 2023 review highlighted the ageing pool estate and the significant energy improvements that will be required if we are to ensure that facilities remain sustainable. The review’s findings underscore the need for a collaborative approach that brings together Government, local authorities, other partners and communities to secure the future of our sporting infrastructure.
I hope that today’s debate will spark ideas and inspire collaborative solutions that can support both the operators who keep facilities running and, critically, the users who depend on them.
16:41
Colleagues across the chamber are well aware that I have been a very strong advocate for the aims outlined in the petition for a very long time. I very much welcome the work that has been undertaken by the convener, Jackson Carlaw, and his colleagues on the Citizen Participation and Public Petitions Committee.
When the Scottish Government comes to sum up at the end of this afternoon’s debate, I hope that it will make specific reference to the committee’s call for a task force to combine all the relevant stakeholders that the cabinet secretary mentioned earlier. Implementing such a recommendation could be immensely helpful.
My colleagues in the Scottish Conservatives fully support this debate, and here is why. There are 295 public swimming pools in Scotland. Of those, 122 are more than 38 years old, which is the average lifespan of a pool. On current trends, that means the potential loss of more than 150 pools by 2040; we would have to replace them at the rate of four pools per year to maintain the current level of provision. It is very clear from that evidence that the future of community pools is in jeopardy, and that is why the public is desperate for parliamentarians to do something about it. It really matters to families and local communities.
Throughout the lifetime of the petition, in my role as convener of the cross-party group on sport, I have consulted extensively with Scottish Swimming. I have co-hosted two fringe events at party conferences, alongside former Olympic swimmer Hannah Miley MBE, on the issue of access to pools. In October 2025, I was invited to attend the excellent national learn to swim 10-year celebration event with Scottish Swimming, Scottish Water and the Olympian Duncan Scott OBE. Both those Olympians were in no doubt whatever about the challenge that we face. In September 2023, I held a members’ business debate on the save our pools campaign and, in March 2024, I formally submitted my support for the petition to the convener of the Citizen Participation and Public Petitions Committee.
Swimming remains incredibly popular: 13 per cent of adults swim regularly, making it the sport with highest participation levels after multigym and weight training—although I have to say to the cabinet secretary that pickleball is fast catching up, I think—and, most importantly, swimming is the most popular participation sport for those with disabilities, due to its suitability for those with reduced mobility. That is why nine out of 10 Scots believe that the closure of swimming pools is very bad for their local communities.
There is also the safety aspect, which other members have spoken about. Learning to swim is a key life skill, but it is in decline. There were 33 accidental drownings in 2024, which is a stark reminder of why those skills are so important. In a country with such an abundance of lochs, rivers, reservoirs and beaches, we must be ever more vigilant to the dangers of water and ensure that all children have the basic ability to swim. At this point, I issue a warning to some of the influencers on platforms such as Instagram and TikTok who are irresponsibly advertising some of those dangerous locations as beauty spots, at the same time as withholding key information about safety. That is unacceptable in this age of mass social media.
It is the issue of school swimming that concerns me most, because it is still a key target for some local authority cuts. Eight of our local authorities do not offer school swimming at all, and a further 10 have only a partial school swimming offer. That brings me to the point about the postcode lottery that exists with regard to who is able to access learn to swim programmes. Disadvantaged children in deprived communities are far less likely to be able to access swimming, given both the rising costs of lessons and the lack of provision at school.
My primary driver for introducing legislation on residential outdoor education was to address the inherent unfairness, in that so many children were not being offered the opportunity because of their circumstances. Studies have shown that, just as there are benefits from outdoor education, that is also true of swimming. If all young people are to learn to swim—as I believe they should—there must be adequate provision of pools around the country within reasonable distances.
There are also the health and wellbeing elements. Pools are social hubs and promote a healthy lifestyle for body and mind. They provide a centre for families and communities and, in many cases, for competitions at both elite and grass-roots levels. Many people have childhood memories of swimming, sharing fun experiences with friends, parents and grandparents, but that can happen only if pools are easily and readily accessible.
In my region, there are currently plans to replace the immensely popular Perth pool, with its fun elements including flumes, rapids and an outdoor area, with a new pool in Thimblerow, but that proposal will downgrade the existing pool to one that is much smaller and far more basic. It would not even include on-site parking in the middle of Perth, which suggests either a total absence from reality on the part of the planners involved or that they simply do not care whether the facility is actually used.
In order to keep the current level of swimming provision available, a sizeable financial effort and reallocation of resources will be required, but I believe that that will be an investment well made. I urge the Scottish Government to consider the potential preventative spend that facilities such as swimming pools provide, and to look at its own strategy on health, with which the current rate of pool closures is not compatible. The Scottish Government was persuaded to have a change of heart on outdoor education, and I hope that it will be persuaded in the same way on swimming.
Most importantly, the public overwhelmingly want pools to remain open, and we are all in the chamber today to represent their views. I continue whole-heartedly to support petition PE2018 and I call on the Scottish Government to act on Scottish Swimming’s calls for sustainable financial investment.
I call Neil Bibby—up to five minutes, please.
16:48
A happy new year to you, Deputy Presiding Officer, and to everyone across the chamber.
Scottish Labour very much welcomes the debate, and I thank Jackson Carlaw and the Parliament’s Citizen Participation and Public Petitions Committee for securing it, given how precious parliamentary time is. This issue matters, and I commend the excellent work of Scottish Swimming’s staff and athletes in strongly advocating and campaigning for swimming to be accessible to all.
That is needed because, as we have heard, swimming is a life-saving skill. Swimming can boost the health and wellbeing of people of all ages, and it can ensure that our children and young people have the skills that they need to stay safe in the water. However, we should listen when Duncan Scott, Scotland’s most decorated Olympian, warns the Parliament that the number of drownings will only increase as a result of pool closures.
It is harder for our kids to learn to swim if the doors to the pools are locked; when swimming pools in Scotland close or community pools cut their opening hours; and when the cost of a swimming session rises. The cost of a swimming lesson has doubled since 2018, and, as we know, it is the poorest kids who are priced out. It is also harder because the pandemic resulted in growing waiting lists for kids’ swimming lessons. Everything right now seems to be making it harder, and it is our job to make it easier.
The petition before us urges the Scottish Government to keep our leisure facilities open. It also calls for urgent financial investment, and we know why that is needed. Years of Scottish National Party Government underfunding of Scotland’s local councils has resulted in local authority budgets being decimated, so that councils have less money to spend on leisure services and have to make difficult decisions.
Will the member give way?
The cabinet secretary can point to the last financial year, but his Government had £5 billion extra from the Labour UK Government, so he could hardly have cut the budget for local councils yet again.
Will the member give way?
I am limited for time, cabinet secretary.
It is not just about that £5 billion extra. As I told the petitions committee last year, when the Scottish Government, in this parliamentary session, received £6 million of Barnett consequentials from the previous UK Conservative Government’s swimming pool support fund, it resisted passing that money directly to local councils, despite colleagues across the chamber urging it to do so.
Will the member give way?
I will give way if it is brief. I am limited for time.
Briefly, cabinet secretary.
We just heard from Mr Carlaw about evidence from COSLA on the need to ensure that we do not have restrictive ring fencing of funding. I have just set out the increased funding that has been given to local government through a 5.5 per cent real-terms funding increase. Of course there are pressures, but that gives local government the choice to invest in those facilities.
I do not know whether the cabinet secretary was listening before I took his intervention. I just said that, last year, you had £5 billion extra from the Labour Government, so you could hardly have cut the local councils budget.
Please speak through the chair.
It is harder for people to access swimming pools and lessons just now because, for years, the Scottish Government has made it harder for councils to fund them.
It is important to recognise that swimming pools are expensive to run, and it would be remiss of me not to acknowledge that energy costs are a significant part of the reason for that. Soaring energy bills over the past few years have resulted in opening hours being cut and temperatures dropping in our pools. Stabilising and reducing energy bills and investing more in clean energy through GB Energy, as the UK Labour Government is doing, therefore needs to be a priority and could help our swimming pools and other sporting facilities.
We should remember that these facilities have survived crises in the past, including energy crises, and they can do so again. Yet, in recent years, they have faced a double whammy from cuts to council budgets and rising energy costs. As a result, in Scotland, the ticking time bomb is louder than ever. As Liz Smith said, we have 295 public pools, and Scottish Swimming estimates that 122 of them are more than 38 years old and coming to the end of their lifespan. Some pools will, inevitably, need to close, but we should be saying that community pools generally need greater protection from closure.
Therefore, we must come together and establish, as has been suggested, a cross-party working group and task force, along with Scottish Swimming and our local councils and leisure trusts, to develop a plan for a sustainable future for swimming in Scotland.
This petition is about more than just bricks and mortar. Swimming pools are a means to an end—boosting physical strength, supporting mental wellbeing and saving lives. Yet, on this Government’s watch, 40 per cent of our children are leaving primary school unable to swim. We are robbing them of their safety in a country where the drowning rate is double the UK average.
My party, Scottish Labour, is fully committed to changing that. We will ensure that every child in primary 5 has a chance to swim and learns the basics of water safety. We will work to fully implement Scottish Swimming’s national primary school swimming framework, which I was pleased to see at first hand at Gracemount leisure centre in December. We will also conduct a national audit of school swimming provision to identify the pupils who are most at risk. Most importantly, we will provide that £6 million investment to make national implementation of school swimming a reality.
After two decades of decline, there is no doubt that public assets such as our swimming pools have never been more under threat, and time is running out to do something about it. I hope that we can agree that we need to work together across the chamber, before and after the election, to secure the future of our swimming pools and give every child the chance to swim.
Before I call the next speaker, I advise members that we already have a later decision time. We are quite far behind the allocated time for this debate, so members will have to stick to their speaking time allocations and any interventions will need to be brief and accommodated within those time allocations. I call Patrick Harvie to speak for up to four minutes.
16:54
I thank the committee for the work that it has done and, of course, the petitioners for raising the issue.
I will mention two particular pools and two particular communities in order to illustrate two specific points in the limited time that I have available. Those pools are in Govanhill, which is in the south side of Glasgow, and in Whitehill, Dennistoun, which is in the east end of Glasgow. Both pools have closed already—those are both communities that have lost their pools. In Govanhill’s case, 25 or so years ago, the council decided to close the pool despite the community’s valiant efforts to save it. Since then, the community, driven by its passion for what could be brought back to life, has, in the voluntary and non-profit sector, independently attempted to bring not just the building but all the services that it brought together back to life.
The community understands that, as other members have said, swimming pools are more than just swimming pools; they are community hubs and they can unite people across different demographics, foster a local identity, improve life skills and encourage young people to adopt healthy lifestyles. They can contribute to the local economy, too, by attracting and retaining people in the local community, as well as by attracting events. However, the community recognises that it does not have the resources that a local council has available to invest in the way that is required. If we are going to see any such assets brought back to life by communities, they, as well as local authorities, need to have the resources to invest.
rose—
I am afraid that I do not have time to take an intervention.
I hear the call for more local authority investment, but investment needs to go beyond local authorities and into organisations that have taken on community ownership and the responsibility to bring lost assets back to life.
In the case of Whitehill, the facility was lost much more recently. As late as 2018-19, there was significant investment to bring the ageing building up to date. There had been investment throughout the 2010s, but, as a result of a range of issues—not just the age of the building, but the discovery of reinforced autoclaved aerated concrete, asbestos and other issues—the facility has been lost. Again, the community has been working hard to persuade the local authority to take it on and develop a business case to bring it back to life.
The Whitehill facility illustrates the scale of what we are talking about and the scale of the investment that is required. Even the deep retrofit that would be required to bring Whitehill pool back to life and allow it to provide the service that it previously provided to the Dennistoun community would cost more than £30 million. A new build, which some are saying would be the preferable option, would cost only slightly more than that, at £32.5 million.
That is for one swimming pool. As other members have mentioned, the number of pools around the country that are of an age is a reminder to us that previous generations of politicians did raise the money and made investments on a large scale. If we take seriously the value that swimming and the pools and facilities that we are talking about have for our communities, we need to be willing to do the same. I would like to say with confidence—I hope that Mr Carlaw agrees—that nobody will come to the Parliament today to ask for that investment and then return tomorrow to ask for £1 billion in tax cuts.
16:58
I wish you, Presiding Officer, and colleagues across the chamber a happy new year from a snowy Shetland.
I thank the Citizen Participation and Public Petitions Committee for its work on this petition. I am pleased to speak in this debate to recognise the value of swimming pools and the call that financial relief is necessary to help to keep pools open.
I also thank Scottish Swimming for providing its briefing and for the work that it does all year round to promote swimming for everyone, which has physical and mental health benefits as well as being a good all-round sporting activity. Those were some of the positive benefits that were highlighted in the 2023 Scottish Liberal Democrat conference debate on swimming and the primary school curriculum.
Swimming provision and equal access to learning to swim is also important for reasons of safety in and around waters. It will come as no surprise that an islander like me is keen to ensure that every child is given the opportunity to learn to swim. It is a lifelong skill that is best learned as a child and one that is not just for people who live in and around island and coastal communities. With rivers and lochs across Scotland that are attractive and accessible from cities and towns, the dangers of water to the inexperienced are not always obvious.
Swimming and other water-related activities mean that more people are making their way to waters for fun, health and wellbeing reasons. As an aside, quite why swimming is referred to as “wild swimming” is a mystery to me. Like others of my generation in Shetland, I learned to swim in the cold North Sea, and it was and still is simply called swimming. I have close friends who are lifelong sea swimmers all year round, though I have not been tempted to join them.
This debate, however, is about the value of swimming pools. In an era of cuts to public services, it might seem to some that funding swimming pools is a luxury that we can live without. I do not share that view, for some of the reasons that I have already mentioned.
I also have a personal reason for ensuring that people have access to public swimming pools. I know at first hand what can happen if you cannot swim. As a child, I accidentally fell into the harbour at Lerwick. Thankfully, I was spotted by a quick-thinking fisherman, who hauled me out. It could have been a different story—I could have been a drowning statistic. To this day, I am not a confident swimmer.
Scottish Swimming indicates that the number of public swimming pools in Scotland is reducing. Of the 295 pools, 122 are more than 38 years old and are therefore nearing the end of their lifespan. According to Swim England, the average lifespan of a pool is 38 years. Based on that age model, Scotland could have a net loss of more than 150 pools by 2040. The estimated investment that is needed for four new pools a year is around £40 million.
In my constituency, swimming pools are run by the Shetland Recreational Trust, which has a network of eight pools across the islands. The two most northerly in the network and, indeed, in the United Kingdom, were both opened in 1988, which takes them to the 38-year lifespan this year.
Increased running costs, as other members have said, are affecting the sustainability of swimming pools across the country, and the biggest impact on those running costs is the cost of energy. It is suggested that an estimated £68 million a year is needed to power Scotland’s pools, though with energy efficiencies and retrofitting with sustainable technologies, around £5 million a year could be saved.
To conclude, supporting our public swimming pools is a lifelong investment in people’s wellbeing and life-saving skills.
We move to the open debate.
17:02
I am pleased to speak in this debate because, for a coastal constituency such as mine, swimming pools are vital for safety and health.
Water is part of our everyday life. It is beside our homes, and it underpins jobs in fishing, aquaculture, offshore energy and the wider supply chain. It is where families spend time together when they can. When we talk about swimming pools, I do not start from a sporting perspective; I start from the simple reality that learning to swim is a life skill. In coastal Scotland, that can be the difference between a frightening moment and a tragedy.
There is a rural reality that it is easy to miss sometimes. When a pool closes, people are told, “There’s another one over there.”. However, “over there” can be completely out of reach. In rural Scotland, distance does not just inconvenience people; it absolutely excludes them. That is why pools matter far beyond leisure. They are where children build confidence in the water, where older folk keep moving when other exercise options are too hard on their joints, where someone who is living with severe pain or disability can access low-impact activity that simply is not available elsewhere, and where we see the quieter mental health benefit of routine and self-care.
This is also where the idea of a wellbeing economy becomes practical, not theoretical. If we are really serious about prevention, we must protect local services that reduce harm and keep people well because, if we strip them out, the costs do not disappear—they just land later in poorer health, greater inequality and higher pressure on other services.
Local authorities have to make difficult decisions, but they also have choices about what they prioritise and whether they fully weigh up the long-term impact when a community facility is lost. I do not shy away from saying that all spheres of government are operating within tight fiscal constraints, but if we consider the high-level overview of budget decisions and the consequences of them, surely it is good business, too.
I will ground this point in a local example—the pool at Bracoden primary school in Gamrie by Gardenstown. It is a village that sits right on the cliffs on the coastline. The pool was first built as an open-air facility in the late 1950s, and it was paid for by the local community. That history matters, because it tells us what communities valued enough to build and what families expected would be there for the next generation. The reality is that the pool has now been closed for a few years and it would require additional work to reopen. We all know that, once something shuts, it can be far harder to get it back, and that is why engagement matters. When facilities such as that one are at risk, communities need time to work with councils and partners on practical solutions. If decisions arrive abruptly, people lose not just the facility but the chance to organise, to shape alternatives and to build something sustainable while there is still momentum and good will.
We also need to be straight about what is driving so many closures. Pools are energy-hungry buildings. When electricity and heating costs spike, that does not just tighten budgets—it can take a facility from a difficult situation to a completely unsustainable one almost overnight. That pressure is often felt the hardest in rural areas.
We should also be honest about where the main levers on energy pricing and regulation sit, because it is not at Holyrood. When local public services are being squeezed by bills that feel completely out of proportion, the frustration is real and it should be directed at the system that sets those costs. Why, in an energy-rich Scotland, are bills so high?
I am glad to see that strong practical work is under way on the condition of Scotland’s pool estate and on what a sustainable future looks like, including energy efficiency measures that reduce operational costs and emissions. That is the direction—
You need to conclude, please.
Therefore, I support the desire for Parliament to recognise swimming pools for what they are—essential community infrastructure. Keeping pools open protects lives, improves health and reduces inequalities—
You do need to conclude.
—but we must also acknowledge that funding requires creative thinking.
17:06
I remember all too well going along with my friends to the open-air pool in Troon. When I say “open”, I mean that in every sense of the word, given that the water was pumped directly into the pool from the sea, sand and all. Apparently, it was heated, but I am pretty sure that I caught a glimpse of the Titanic at the bottom of the deep end, because I remember constantly chittering away as we jumped off the diving boards and ran back up the stairs for another go.
Then came the luxury of Ayr swimming pool, which was indoors, no less, with proper diving boards. My friends and I, who were probably aged around 10 or 11, would jump on to the bus in Troon on a Saturday and head for Ayr pool. Then there were the swimming lessons at Troon primary school, which meant the adventure of jumping on the coach with my classmates and heading into Ayr—those were good days at school. Then there was going to the Magnum leisure centre in Irvine with my friends and hurtling down the waterslides. We were included, rather than excluded.
Being able to participate is incredibly important. Swimming is not like most activities or sports in that you can participate in most sports no matter your level—you can give it a go. With swimming, you either can or you cannot. If you cannot, water becomes a danger and you are excluded.
My dad taught me to swim. On Thursdays after school, mum, dad and my brother were off to the baths. There was fish and chips on the way home. It was family time that I remember fondly more than five decades later.
That is what we are talking about. Swimming might be an essential life skill, but it is also a fantastic physical activity. It is great fun, as is water aerobics for an older person—keeping fit in a non-weight-bearing environment. Children should be confident enough to fling themselves down waterslides at water parks. I did all that with my daughters. I still have an excuse to participate because I have grandsons, and I am still a big kid at heart.
I am forever extolling the virtues of giving our children access to physical activity, and I lament the consistent decline in those opportunities for our children, despite what the Scottish Government might claim. School sport is a shadow of what it once was. Physical literacy has no priority for this Government, despite many studies showing the positive influence that physical literacy plays in all aspects of education. The Government needs to tackle the resulting poor physical and mental health.
A poster on my office wall says that food is the most abused anxiety drug and exercise is the most underutilised antidepressant. At a time when we are increasingly concerned about the physical and mental wellbeing of our communities, one of the main ways to positively tackle those issues is being squeezed by the Scottish Government. The cost of those cuts will be borne in the need to increase the health and education portfolio budgets. The SNP might talk about prevention, but the cuts demonstrate that it understands little of what prevention actually means.
It is about inclusion and the opportunity to be physically active in a fun environment. That is why I was so passionate about supporting Liz Smith’s Schools (Residential Outdoor Education) (Scotland) Bill and was delighted that we forced it through. From the open-air pool in Troon, Ayr baths and the Time Capsule in Coatbridge to every water park on holidays, show me a child who does not love the water. The Government says that it is committed to tackling inequality, yet the chances of being able to swim and to go with friends to the swimming pool is dictated by whether someone lives in a council area that is fully committed to free school swimming lessons or in a more deprived area. It is a classic postcode lottery.
Swimming is a lifelong skill, and we should not even have to debate its importance. Give our children universal access to free swimming lessons, give our communities that access to continue the positive relationship with the water, and let us make sure that no one is excluded just because they were never given the opportunity.
17:10
I am pleased to speak in support of the petition, which recognises the value of swimming pools and calls for financial relief to help to keep them open across Scotland. I have long advocated on the issue in the Parliament. Indeed, in this parliamentary session, I have lodged two motions on the topic, both of which achieved cross-party support. Back in March 2023, I held what I felt to be a successful garden lobby event entitled “Everyone Can Swim—Save Our Pools”. The issue is something that I am quite invested in.
As others have said, swimming pools are vital community assets. They play a central role in reducing the risk of drowning and improving physical and mental health, and they support wellbeing across all age groups. They provide structured and safe environments in which people can build confidence, learn life-saving skills and maintain active lifestyles. Scottish Swimming has estimated the social value of swimming in the UK to be almost £2.5 billion, which illustrates that modest investment now can deliver significant long-term benefits for society.
As Karen Adam said, we must challenge the perception of swimming as simply another leisure activity. Swimming is a life-saving skill. For many of us when growing up, swimming lessons were embedded in the school curriculum, ensuring that every child, regardless of background, had the chance to learn. That sense of universality has weakened. Today, access to swimming lessons can depend on whether families can afford them, whether a local pool still exists and whether it can accommodate the lessons.
That matters profoundly at a time when more people are accessing open water for leisure and health reasons. Scotland’s lochs, rivers and coastline offer incredible opportunities, but they also bring risks. If fewer people have basic swimming skills while participating in outdoor swimming, the consequences could be serious. Swimming pools are therefore as much about safety as they are about recreation.
Pools also play a key role in tackling inequality. Growing up in Coatbridge, visits to the local municipal baths were built into the school curriculum, from primary right through to secondary school. Everyone took part. As I referenced earlier, from an early age, we were taught that swimming was a basic life skill. However, when facilities close, it is often those in lower-income communities who lose out most. Travel distances increase, costs rise and participation drops. If we are serious about addressing health and economic inequalities, we must ensure that swimming pools remain accessible and affordable across the country.
I recognise the financial pressures that local authorities face. Rising energy costs throughout the UK, which are particularly steep in the context of swimming pools, as well as ageing infrastructure and stretched budgets, have created a difficult environment. Although decisions about local facilities sit with councils, it is clear that the challenge cannot be met by local government alone. A collaborative approach is needed, involving local authorities, leisure trusts, national agencies and all levels of government.
In my constituency, North Lanarkshire Council has recently invested millions in the well-known Time Capsule in Coatbridge, which has already been referred to and which includes a 25m pool as well as the more renowned water park. That has been very welcome, but it has partly come about because the public have always shown, at every turn, a strength of feeling towards the facility. My point is that swimming pools carry vast public support. In contrast, the nearby John Smith pool in the cabinet secretary’s constituency has been closed for some time due to the cost of on-going repairs. Given that my constituents also use that facility, I have supported him and local councillors in efforts to have the pool reopened. I am pleased that his campaign has been successful, with plans to open again soon. I commend him for that.
There should be more pools across our communities, not fewer. I must acknowledge that the Scottish Government has recognised the pressures at a national level and increased funding for local government in the most recent budget. That is important, but it does not remove the need for targeted support where pools are at risk. Exploring options such as energy cost relief, capital investment, efficiency upgrades and longer-term sustainability could make a real difference.
There is also more to do on swimming education, as others have mentioned. Although I recognise the flexibility afforded by the curriculum for excellence and the practical challenges that some schools face, we should continue to explore how every child can be given a genuine opportunity to learn to swim.
You need to conclude.
I fully support swimming lessons being part of the school curriculum.
17:15
There is a consensus here that more needs to happen around swimming. However, from the public’s point of view, the real challenge is not what we talk about in debates, but what happens outside them. That is a question that the public increasingly ask, not only about swimming, across much of Scotland.
The figure that was given by Jackson Carlaw and Neil Bibby—40 per cent of children leave primary school without being able to swim—should be of real concern. We should absolutely look at the curriculum and how we ensure that, as part of it, children can access swimming. This morning the Daily Record said that a study found that 16 per cent of children in the most disadvantaged areas have to learn to swim outside school, which means that masses of children in the most disadvantaged areas are not able to learn to swim. For many children, it is about whether their parents have the resources to take them and get them booked into swimming lessons so that they learn how to swim. If the parents are not interested or simply do not have the resources, the children are clearly disadvantaged, and something needs to be done about that.
Before Christmas, a primary school class from Fife visited the Parliament. When we had a chat, I asked them whether they had received swimming lessons at primary school, and they had not. Some of them said that their parents had taken them to learn how to swim, and some of them just had not learned to swim at all. I reflected and said to them that, when I was at primary school, in a certain week of the term in a certain year, a bus would come, we would all get on it, we would go down to the Bowhill swimming pool and we were all taught how to swim. If you think about it, that was more than 50 years ago—primary school kids were able to access swimming and learn to swim, so we seem to have gone backwards with a lot of provision. On a more positive note, before Christmas, I visited the newly refurbished Cowdenbeath leisure centre, and I give all credit to Fife Council for the investment that it has made there. We need to see more of that happening.
For children, we need to look at the curriculum as a key component. Local authorities would not be able to say that they do not provide English as part of the curriculum, but they are able to say that they do not provide swimming. That is one area that we should look at.
What else can we do? I am quite interested in the idea of a national task force that Jackson Carlaw and the Citizen Participation and Public Petitions Committee have floated, because a lot of the issues have not happened overnight. Rising energy costs and transport costs for schools are immediate pressures, but we have had decades of failed austerity. I had the privilege of leading Scotland’s third largest local authority, and local authorities were disproportionately cut in that period of failed austerity. At the same time, councils had to protect education and social work, so leisure and recreation, including swimming, were disproportionately cut.
The decline has not happened overnight, and solutions will not be found overnight, but the idea of putting together a task force would be interesting, and I would like to hear what the cabinet secretary has to say about that. Rather than just having hot air in the debates, which is what people see, we have to start to turn our words into action and make something happen.
We move to wind-up speeches.
17:19
I thank Helen Plank and all who gave life to PE2018, as well as members of the Citizen Participation and Public Petitions Committee for the serious and thoughtful work that they have done on it.
The petition speaks to something deeply human: our shared need for spaces that support health, dignity, safety and connection. As we have heard, swimming pools are not luxuries but essential public services. They are places where children learn a life-saving skill, where older people maintain mobility and independence, where disabled people can move freely and without pain, and where communities come together across generations and backgrounds. When we talk about valuing swimming pools, in many ways, we are talking about valuing people.
The evidence that the committee heard was clear: pools are under severe financial pressure due to rising energy costs, ageing buildings and chronic underinvestment. Local authorities are being forced into impossible choices and, too often, the result is closure. However, the cost of closing swimming pools is simply pushed elsewhere—into our national health service, into social care and into the deepening health inequalities that the Parliament has repeatedly committed to tackle. Movement is fundamental to physical and mental wellbeing, and swimming is uniquely accessible. It is low impact, adaptable and inclusive of people who might not be able to participate in other forms of exercise. For many, the local pool is the only affordable and safe place to be active. Removing that option does not save money in the long run; it stores up harm.
As we have heard from many members, swimming is also about safety. In a country with so much coastline and so many rivers and lochs, the ability to swim can be the difference between life and death. Closing pools undermines our collective responsibility to keep people safe.
We see the real-world impact of such decisions very clearly in the north-east of Scotland. In Dundee, current proposals to close swimming pools have caused deep concern among parents and communities, who understand that, once such facilities are lost, they are unlikely to return. The closure of the Gardyne campus swimming pool has already removed a vital resource that was used not just by students but by local residents, older people and disability groups.
However, we see what is possible when communities are listened to and supported. In Aberdeen, Bucksburn pool was saved from closure because local people refused to accept that losing their pool was inevitable. They organised and made the case for the pool’s social value, and they were right. That pool is now recognised not just as a building but as a cornerstone of community wellbeing.
Such stories tell us something important. Decisions about pools should not be made on narrow financial spreadsheets alone. They must account for social value, preventative health benefits and the voices of the people who rely on pools most.
Scottish Greens believe in strong, universal public services that are delivered as locally as possible and funded fairly. We believe that public infrastructure should serve the common good and not be quietly dismantled when budgets tighten. Recognising the value of swimming pools means backing that belief with practical support, targeted financial relief, national leadership and long-term planning that treats pools as part of our health and wellbeing infrastructure.
The petition gives us the opportunity to do exactly that—to say clearly that keeping pools open matters, that accessibility matters, that community matters and that prevention, dignity and wellbeing are worth investing in. I urge the Scottish Government to take the petition seriously, to act on the committee’s findings and to work with communities and local authorities to ensure that swimming pools everywhere remain open, accessible and valued for generations to come.
17:23
Happy new year to you, Deputy Presiding Officer, and to colleagues across the chamber.
I commend the Citizen Participation and Public Petitions Committee for lodging the motion for debate, which I was pleased to sign. I extend my thanks and congratulations to the petitioners, led by Helen Plank, on behalf of Scottish Swimming, and to all those who have signed and supported the petition to highlight the critical value of public swimming pools across Scotland.
The debate provides a timely opportunity to focus on the urgent need for continued investment in these municipal facilities. Many such examples have been cited by members. I join my colleague from Glasgow, Patrick Harvie, in recognising Whitehill pool in Dennistoun, which is a vital asset for the communities of Glasgow’s east end. I urge the Scottish Government to work with Glasgow City Council and Glasgow Life to secure its future.
That pool is one of the older ones. As mentioned, the average age of pools in Scotland is significantly higher than those across the rest of the UK usually are. The Whitehill pool opened in 1978, so it is approaching half a century old. It has served as an essential community asset in one of Glasgow’s most deprived areas, providing affordable access to swimming lessons, fitness classes and recreational activities that are crucial for tackling health inequalities, promoting physical activity and supporting mental wellbeing in a district of Glasgow where obesity rates remain stubbornly high and life expectancy lags behind the national average. Such facilities are not mere amenities—they are public health interventions and should be calculated as such. Generations of local families have used that pool to learn to swim and as a hub for fostering social cohesion in Dennistoun and beyond.
I have been involved in the campaign for many years. As the previous member of Parliament for Glasgow North East, I joined local residents in opposing proposed council cuts that threatened the pool’s closure, finally getting a commitment from the council to reinvest. Since my election to the Scottish Parliament in 2021, I have continued with cross-party working, supporting local councillors Elaine McDougall and Anthony Carroll, and standing alongside the save Whitehill pool campaign, which is led tirelessly by dedicated champions such as Bill Stark, the chair of the Whitehill swimming club, and Alwyn Poulter, who pressed Glasgow Life for new investment.
We have had hard-won victories, including a commitment to refurbishment works, but, unfortunately, the discovery of RAAC in the building in December 2023 has forced its indefinite closure—a devastating blow to the community. We know that it was not foreseen, but the presence of RAAC has been compounded by other structural issues, and repair costs are indicated to be £20 million. Although Glasgow Life has at times recommended the demolition or mothballing of the building, it recently retracted that position following continued community pressure.
The setback is now well into its third year, but it cannot become permanent. The closure of the pool has displaced swimmers to distant alternatives, disrupted learn-to-swim programmes and left a void in local leisure provision at a time when Glasgow Life is investing in and upgrading other facilities in the city ahead of the Commonwealth games. For example, in the summer, Tollcross international swimming centre received significant investment, as did Springburn leisure centre, where I first learned to swim at primary school. Whitehill should not be left as the outlier and the only major pool that is not benefiting from that wave of investment.
We need to commit to innovative thinking about municipal pools. We often focus on their running costs, but we are not thinking about the way in which they could be integrated with district heating systems, for example. We could certify Whitehill to Passivhaus standards, as we have seen being done with the recent investment in Blairgowrie leisure centre, which is Scotland’s first Passivhaus swimming pool, cutting energy costs by up to 80 per cent. That is a huge opportunity.
In an area such as Dennistoun, which has a dense tenement grid right next to Tennent’s brewery, which is a major heat generator, and the Hovis bakery, where the famous Mothers Pride loaves are made, there is already a heat generation network that could be integrated with local housing and could reduce energy costs for the whole community, as well as providing a good public facility.
We need to recognise that it is not just about investment in another leisure facility but about a potential massive investment in the public health of Glasgow and many other examples across the country. We need to let people swim again and build that national resilience.
17:28
I thank the petitioner, the committee clerks and witnesses, and my colleagues on the Citizen Participation and Public Petitions Committee for assisting in bringing the debate to Parliament this afternoon.
During today’s debate, much has rightly been made of the vital role that swimming pools play in our communities, from keeping people active and reducing future pressures on the NHS, to ensuring that children can learn to swim, to supporting those who swim competitively. A further key theme has been the budgetary pressures on councils that threaten that vital infrastructure. I will not repeat the arguments that we have heard today and will instead focus my time on the current situation in Dundee.
Dundee recently lost the Dundee and Angus College pool at Gardyne Road, and the city council is now proposing the closure of swimming pools at Harris academy, St John’s high school and Baldragon academy as a cost-saving measure. The argument that is being made is that swimming provision in the city can be delivered by the remaining pools. However, those closures will have a detrimental impact, first and foremost, on the immediate local communities that they serve.
The idea that people can simply swim elsewhere is a flawed one, particularly for low-income households and for those who rely on public transport. Beyond that, such closures will create significant knock-on pressures across neighbouring facilities. In Menzieshill, where I grew up, Dundee City Aquatics and Whitehall swimming club have both highlighted the devastating impact that that would have on their clubs. More swimming lessons will be squeezed into the remaining pools, clubs will compete for increasingly scarce pool time and other users will be crowded out. Public and recreational swimming, especially in the evenings, will be heavily impacted. As those slots disappear, people will be pushed towards expensive private gym memberships or excluded from regular swimming altogether. Swimming should not become a privilege only for those who can afford private facilities.
At the heart of proposed closures are the high energy costs associated with heated swimming pools. Rather than closing facilities, the starting point must be to reduce those energy costs in the first place. As we have heard, many pools were built at a time when energy efficiency was not a design priority, so there is clear scope for savings. From the simplest measures, such as staff energy awareness programmes and modest temperature reductions, where appropriate, through to capital investment in pool covers, building insulation and solar heating, there are practical steps that can, and should, be explored. There are also more innovative approaches and I was particularly interested to learn about the Move Urmston leisure centre in Greater Manchester, where swimming pools are heated using excess heat from data centres. Such projects save tens of thousands of pounds in running costs while cutting carbon emissions.
There has been clear recognition throughout this debate of the financial pressures that are faced by local authorities. I echo the calls made today to ensure that we provide Scottish people with sustainable funding and long-term solutions.
I call the cabinet secretary.
17:32
I again thank the petitions committee for lodging a motion on what is, without question, an important issue. Today’s debate has demonstrated the vital role that swimming pools play in our communities and the wide range of benefits that they bring, not least in their positive impact on children and young people, which Mr Whittle and others alluded to.
However, our discussion has also highlighted the significant challenges that exist. As I said earlier, I firmly believe that everyone should have the opportunity to participate in sport and physical activity, which requires access to the facilities that make that possible. In that regard, I absolutely agree with the sentiment set out by Liz Smith about the impact of pool closures on local communities. Mr MacGregor may have been seeking to make me blush by talking about the work that has been done in collaboration with community groups in Airdrie and Coatbridge in order to get investment from North Lanarkshire Council for the John Smith pool in my constituency.
When the report “The Future of Swimming Facilities in Scotland” was published, it identified 396 swimming pools across Scotland but also confirmed that that estate is ageing. More than half of those facilities are more than 36 years old and, although a pool can remain open and operational for around 60 years with proper maintenance and refurbishment, the number of facilities will decline without sustained investment. That point was made by Mr Harvie.
The recent Audit Scotland report on culture and leisure services confirmed that spending has reduced by 3 per cent in real terms since 2018-19, emphasising the importance of local decision making.
Energy efficiency is another critical issue, because rising energy costs are placing enormous pressure on budgets, affecting the availability and affordability of community programmes, threatening their continuation or forcing higher costs that make them less accessible, particularly for those who rely on them the most.
Will the cabinet secretary accept an intervention?
I will come to Mr Harvie shortly.
As Karen Adam said, the UK Government has a role to play in addressing energy prices and we have repeatedly called on it to address the issue rather than providing ad hoc funding, which serves only as a temporary fix.
I will give way to Mr Harvie.
Will the cabinet secretary make sure that discussions are happening across portfolios on the question of energy? As reliable, predictable consumers of energy, publicly owned pools could help to make publicly owned heat networks more economically viable—and, vice versa, those heat networks could make pools more economically viable as well.
Yes. I know that, in my colleague Ms Minto’s constituency, some of that work is already happening with local distillers, but there are undoubtedly opportunities in that regard, as Mr Sweeney and Mr Harvie have set out.
The next decade will be essential in tackling the climate emergency, and we recently published our draft climate change plan, which maps out our route towards net zero. Energy efficiency improvements are not only vital for meeting our climate goals but essential for the economic sustainability of the facilities that we are discussing. Some of this thinking has already started, and the report “A Sustainable Future: Enhancing Energy Efficiency in Scotland’s Swimming Pools” sets out strategies, technologies and recommendations to create a greener, more economically viable and sustainable future for Scotland’s swimming facilities.
I mentioned earlier the facilities estate review that sportscotland has undertaken, which will be published shortly. It will help us to have a better understanding of the current condition of the wider estate.
Will the cabinet secretary give way?
If Mr Carlaw’s intervention is about the task force point, I am happy to give way to him.
I ask the cabinet secretary to address that point, because a number of colleagues from across the chamber have supported the calls from many organisations that are involved for the Government to show leadership by establishing a task force, which could perhaps assist in the development of this narrative.
I was just about to turn to the question that was posed to me directly by Mr Carlaw, Ms Smith, Mr Rowley and others. A significant amount of work has already taken place and is already under way to better understand the swimming pool estate, and I have referenced some of that. Sportscotland regularly engages with local authorities and leisure trusts on the sporting facilities estate and it will continue to work with Scottish Swimming to explore the options that are available to strengthen the role that it and other organisations can play in the planning for places for sport. Within that, consideration will be given to how best to support and protect swimming pools.
Will the cabinet secretary take an intervention?
I am really sorry, but I am nearly out of time.
I am happy to give that further consideration, and either I or Ms Todd will respond to the committee and Ms Smith in due course.
The solutions that we are looking for are not just about building for the future and maintaining what we have. They must also be about making difficult decisions so that communities have the right facilities to support their needs. That will require innovation, collaboration and a shared commitment across all levels of government and also the Parliament as it engages with the budget process.
Swimming pools are more than just places to swim. They are community assets that support health, wellbeing and social inclusion. Let us commit to working collectively to safeguard these facilities for future generations.
I call David Torrance to wind up the debate on behalf of the Citizen Participation and Public Petitions Committee.
17:37
On behalf of the Citizen Participation and Public Petitions Committee, I thank colleagues across the chamber for their thoughtful contributions to the debate. I also thank the committee clerks and the Scottish Parliament information centre for their assistance throughout our consideration of the petition.
This is not the first time that the Parliament has discussed swimming pools, but I trust that today’s debate can take us a few steps closer to some much-needed changes in the national approach to the issue. I put on the record my thanks to the petitioner and Scottish Swimming. They have been passionate and very clear about why we must do everything that we can to help to keep swimming pools open. We can all agree that although not everyone can be the next Olympic swimmer, everyone can learn to swim as long as pools are affordable, accessible and available to all.
I whole-heartedly agree with the view of the convener, Liz Smith, Beatrice Wishart, Fulton MacGregor and many other speakers that the impact of pool closures is felt across communities in Scotland and that it affects many people’s chances to survive and thrive.
First, the issue at the core of the petition affects Scotland’s young people and their chances to learn life-saving skills as well as to develop a lifelong habit of being active. Secondly, it is about Scotland’s sportspeople and their chance to become decorated Olympic athletes, whether in swimming or in sports such as water polo, kayaking and diving. Last but not least, it is about swimming being the only chance for some Scots to stay active and healthy. Swimming is a low-impact type of exercise, and it can be the only sustainable physical activity for many people, due to reasons of age, health or ability.
The availability of swimming pools in communities can have an impact on various sectors of public life. It could even be argued that ensuring their continued availability and accessibility is a matter of public health. I will focus on the benefits of swimming for people over the age of 65 and why that matters in Scotland.
Swimming is one of the safest and most effective forms of exercise for older adults. Because the water supports the body, there is very little strain on joints and bones, which makes swimming ideal for those who live with arthritis, joint pain or reduced mobility. That gentle resistance builds muscle strength and improves flexibility without the risk of falling, which is a key advantage for maintaining independence as we age. We know that physical activity matters, yet only 55 per cent of adults in Scotland aged 65 to 74 currently meet the recommended activity levels, and that number drops further after the age of 75, especially among women.
Beyond the physical benefits, swimming boosts mental wellbeing. The water’s calming effect reduces stress and can improve mood and sleep quality. For many older adults who are at risk of loneliness, regular swimming sessions also provide valuable opportunities for social interaction. In short, swimming is not just an exercise; it is a powerful tool for health, happiness and quality of life as we grow older. That area was well covered by Liz Smith and Brian Whittle.
In addition, the petitioner has presented us with evidence that regular swimming plays a major role in the prevention and management of a multitude of health conditions, including obesity, diabetes, dementia, depression, cancer, strokes and heart disease. The petitioner has argued that swimming can contribute to important public health savings in cost and resource.
However, swimming pools are not a priority only for Scottish Swimming. We also heard evidence that demonstrates undeniable national support for our swimming pools. A survey by JL Partners showed that 95 per cent of Scottish people believe that swimming pools are important for safety; 88 per cent see them as community assets; 87 per cent believe that they are important for Scotland as a sporting nation; 86 per cent said that they are important for health benefits; and 69 per cent believe that they are important for social interaction. It is the committee’s strong hope that the Scottish Government now also sees swimming pools as a priority and does all that it can to help to keep them open.
A whole list of speakers, including Liz Smith, Beatrice Wishart, Fulton MacGregor, Alex Rowley and Paul Sweeney, spoke about primary school swimming lessons, the curriculum for excellence and how important learning to swim is for safety, and I hope that the Government takes that point on board, as it is a really valuable one.
To speak from my own experience, as Brian Whittle did, as a youngster I learned to swim in Bowhill swimming pool, close to Alex Rowley. The best bit about it was the chips, going home, from my mum and dad. Those swimming lessons were much needed in the area that I lived in, which was surrounded by water. It was very important that we learned to swim at primary school.
Liz Smith, Maggie Chapman and Patrick Harvie mentioned the value of swimming pools and their importance to communities, and Paul Sweeney and others made comments about building national resilience by investing in swimming pools—sustainably, which is important when it comes to things such as energy costs—and I hope that the Government will take that point on board, because there are many new technologies out there that we can take on board to reduce costs.
As witnesses to the committee have shown, and as many members have pointed out, spending in that area must be seen as an investment and not a cost. In the words of Ben Lamb:
“It is not just about asking for money; it is about asking for smarter investment and a different way of doing things because, frankly, without that, further closures are inevitable.”—[Official Report, Citizen Participation and Public Petitions Committee, 23 April 2025; c 36.]
The petitioner and Scottish Swimming have pursued the action that is called for in the petition for almost three years, in a thorough and determined manner. Our committee’s role is to give a voice to petitioners, and there are many ways in which we can do that. By bringing the debate to the chamber today, we are hopeful that we can prompt the Government to take action to support Scotland’s swimming pools to ensure their survival in the long term.
I will conclude with the petitioner’s words:
“Saving swimming pools is critical. They are lifelines for communities, clubs, individuals and families who rely on them for physical and mental health and general wellbeing. Swimming is more than a sport. It is an opportunity to create a safer, healthier and active Scotland.”
That concludes the debate on the motion lodged on behalf of the Citizen Participation and Public Petitions Committee, on petition PE2018, to recognise the value of swimming pools and provide financial relief to help keep pools open.
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