Meeting of the Parliament

Meeting date: Thursday, November 9, 2023

Official Report 1124KB pdf

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Youth Antisocial Behaviour

The next item of business is a members’ business debate on motion S6M-10788, in the name of Daniel Johnson, on the increase in youth antisocial behaviour. The debate will be concluded without any question being put. As ever, I invite members who wish to participate to press their request-to-speak button now or as soon as possible.

Motion debated,

That the Parliament acknowledges the reported concerning increase in youth antisocial behaviour, both in Scotland generally and locally in the Edinburgh Southern constituency; shares its concern with the reported experiences of local businesses in the Edinburgh Southern constituency and, in particular, local retail and entertainment venues around the New Market Road area, where, it understands, a supermarket chain’s experience of antisocial behaviour is among the highest nationally; notes the reported impact that such an increase in youth antisocial behaviour is having on both the public's and retail workers’ safety; praises the work done by the police to tackle this issue in light of the reported increasing workforce pressures that the force is facing, and notes the calls on the Scottish Government to do all that it can to address this issue.

12:52  

I thank members for signing my motion.

This is a difficult issue. From what we have heard from members across the chamber, it has been clear for a number of months that youth antisocial behaviour is increasing. There might be a broad range of reasons for that, and there might be complex issues at play. It is certainly the case that, post Covid, many of our young people have been struggling to adjust and to deal with the issues that are consequential to that.

However, we must be frank and clear when such behavioural issues occur. Our constituents might well understand that these are complex social issues, but they also want candour and clarity about what is happening and frankness about the steps that can be taken to address these matters.

I come to this issue, having successfully brought forward a member’s bill to deal with the issue of violence and abuse against shop workers. As I did that, it became clear to me that this was an issue that was growing in seriousness and that we had to take steps. I am very pleased to say that, since the introduction and coming into force of the Protection of Workers (Retail and Age-restricted Goods and Services) (Scotland) Act 2021, 3,500 charges have been brought under it.

Speaking to shop workers, unions and retailers, it has also become clear to me that we are seeing an increased incidence of such violent attacks and abuse. There is a growing pattern within that of youth antisocial behaviour, with youths abusing shop workers and causing violent and disruptive incidents in stores.

I think that that is part of a wider pattern, because I have noted in my casework an increasing array of different incidents and patterns of behaviour that are of deep concern to me. They include seemingly innocuous incidents such as eggs being thrown. However, when the threshold is crossed—there have been incidents in which young mothers pushing prams have been attacked by youths with eggs—it stops being trivial and starts being serious. There have also been incidents of persistent vandalism by groups of youths that have led to arson.

In recent weeks and months, there have been situations in which youths in balaclavas have massed in ranks and taunted police officers, seemingly with impunity. Most recently, there have been the incidents that the member for Edinburgh Eastern alluded to earlier. She is quite right. I do not think that we should be holding up any particular community to scrutiny, because I am very clear that the issues that we are talking about affect all communities across Edinburgh. Frankly, my observation is that youth antisocial behaviour is just as much of a problem in Morningside as it is in Niddrie. I do not think that family background is necessarily the indicator here, and I think that that hints at some of the issues that lie at the heart of the problem.

We are seeing a pattern of behaviour by groups of youths. They are not necessarily numerous, but they are persistent. We also need to recognise that, although free bus passes for young people provide a huge opportunity and are of huge benefit, they are being abused by a minority. Some of the young people in question are travelling quite long distances and causing a broad range of problems in different places.

Does Daniel Johnson agree that we need to look at how such a privilege that is given to our youth can be taken away when their behaviour dictates that that should happen?

The member raises a very important point, which I will come to shortly, once I have rounded off the point that I am making.

The third strand of the phenomenon that we are seeing is the use of social media. It is definitely the case that young people are seeing behaviours and copying them, and social media is playing a part in that.

When I talk to the police, I get a sense of deep frustration, and that frustration is twofold. First, the police are as frustrated as community members and retail workers about their ability to attend such incidents when they occur. They also ask whether they have the powers to intervene that they might need.

I am enjoying Daniel Johnson’s contribution. I take him back to his earlier point about the number of charges that there has been under his legislation—I think that he said that there had been about 3,500. Does he have any idea what happens after such a charge and what the outcomes are? It seems to me that that is crucial both in that context and in the context of the present discussion.

It is fair to say that there is an emerging picture there. First, there is the issue of the backlog of court cases, which has undoubtedly impeded things. Secondly—and understandably—sometimes prosecutors do not pursue the charges under my act, because they wish to pursue more serious charges, particularly those that might carry a higher tariff. As a result, not every instance of a charge being brought under my legislation is resulting in a conviction. There are a number of reasons for that, some of which are understandable and some of which are of greater concern.

As for our response to this issue, I will set out three broad principles. First, we absolutely all agree that we must have prevention and progressive responses such as diversion practice. However, those require investment and resource.

Secondly—and this addresses Brian Whittle’s question—I absolutely believe that people have rights, but with those rights come responsibilities. We need to question what happens when those rights are abused.

Thirdly, we must focus on measures that are preventative and which seek to divert, but we must also ask ourselves what happens when such interventions and diversions do not work. What actions and steps can we take?

There are also a number of questions that we need to ask ourselves. First, what impact has the closure of youth services and youth initiatives had? Everyone is clear that those things play a clear role. There has been a decline in the funding for them, and that has had an impact.

Secondly, are the right interventions available? If young people are abusing their bus passes to do some of these things, should those bus passes be suspended for a period?

We understand about the sort of non-criminal justice interventions that we have in the home—

Will the member accept an intervention?

I do not have much time.

Please be brief, Ms Maguire.

I invite the member to reflect on whether removing a child’s ability to travel might prevent them from attending work, or the youth clubs that he spoke about, which can be diversionary from antisocial behaviour.

Please start concluding, Mr Johnson.

I am not being categorical. I am simply asking a question, but I do not think that we can continue allowing someone to use their bus pass without asking whether it is being used for nefarious purposes.

We are very clear about the interventions that can be made in schools or at home and which do not fall into the category of criminal justice. When young people make a mess or cause a disturbance, we ask them to clear that up, so I wonder whether we might think about non-criminal-justice interventions that would absolutely ensure that certain actions have consequences.

Finally, there has been an understandable focus on creating centralised and specialised functions within Police Scotland. However, I get a sense from talking to police officers that we might not have the balance right, with resources perhaps being taken away from response officers and community policing. The question is: do we have that balance right?

We move to the open debate.

13:01  

I thank Daniel Johnson for securing the debate. His motion refers to the impact that antisocial behaviour and youth disorder have on businesses in his Edinburgh Southern constituency. I sympathise with that. I am not going to talk about Edinburgh Southern, but I will talk about things that have happened in my area—I know that this is an issue that every member will have had to deal with.

Following discussion with some retailers about antisocial behaviour, I carried out a survey with businesses around Greenock West train station in my constituency. The results indicated that even having people loitering outside a shop can put others off from entering. I shared the information with local stakeholders to help them to better understand shopkeepers’ concerns and to find ways to address them. There has also been a problem with boy racers in the car park at Tesco Greenock after the shop closes. Residents are disturbed at all hours by noise and by headlights flashing into adjacent homes.

Youth disorder and antisocial behaviour can take many forms. For example, Inverclyde is served by 13 train stations, and youths tend to congregate at locations that they can access by train. That is different from what happens in parts of the country where youths travel by bus. In my area, they mostly use trains. Young people gather at Parklea, near Woodhall station, at the McDonald’s near Port Glasgow station and at Inverkip Harbourside, which is a short walk from Inverkip station. The Inverclyde rail network plays a key role in the movement of youths. Most just want to spend some time with their pals, but a very small cohort want to cause trouble.

I was keen to take part in this debate in order to highlight the good partnership working to deal with youth disorder in Inverclyde, because, although I sympathise with Mr Johnson’s concerns, his motion does not offer any local solutions to the issues. As MSPs, we have a role to play in trying to help.

I am not saying that we have a magic cure in Inverclyde, and I am certainly not saying that we have eradicated youth disorder, but we have made some significant strides this year in dealing with issues at Inverkip Harbourside, and I attribute that to joint working by local stakeholders.

There have been two actions. First, for more than five years, I have convened a group consisting of representatives from the local community council, ward councillors, Police Scotland, the British Transport Police, community wardens, ScotRail and some local residents to focus on the issue. That has led to targeted work at local train stations to prevent people from heading down to the Harbourside area. There has been no party politics, because the issue is about community safety and the safety of the young people themselves. That localised approach has certainly been helpful.

The second action has come via a partnership hub in Inverclyde that is headed up by Police Scotland. It involves partners from the police, Inverclyde Council, local registered social landlords, the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service and representatives from health and social care—as well as others, when required—with the aim of dealing with antisocial behaviour, including youth disorder, in Inverclyde. The Minister for Victims and Community Safety recently took up my invitation to visit the partnership, and she was impressed by the approach that has been taken in Inverclyde.

Youth disorder in Inverkip in my constituency has been a problem for many years. It often dissipates and then spikes again, with it typically coinciding with good weather. However, during a debate on this subject, it is important to point out that we were all young once. At some point in our past, we probably all made some mistakes.

We probably also attended gatherings where the vast majority of individuals behaved well but a small minority did not. Sadly, such situations can lead to those who were not looking for trouble being dragged in. In such instances, Inverclyde Council sends out parent alert letters to address the issue. Parents are told that their child was at a certain location on a certain night when youth disorder took place. The young person might have had nothing to do with any of the disorder, but they could have been dragged into it inadvertently. The letters are sent to make parents aware of the situation and to encourage them to check up on where their kids actually are.

I am aware of the time, so I will finish by returning to the partnership hub. The focus on Inverkip before and during the summer led to a vast reduction in youth disorder. I thank everyone involved and pass on the thanks of my constituents, who have been in contact with me. That approach will continue, and other areas that are affected by youth disorder can address the problem in a similar successful way.

13:06  

I thank Daniel Johnson for securing this important debate, and I concur with many of the points that he made.

At the outset, it is important to note that the vast majority of young people in Scotland are thoughtful, caring and kind, even if, like all of us at that age, they are a little boisterous at times. They should not all be tarred with the same brush, because it is only a very small minority of young people who commit antisocial behaviour offences that are sometimes extreme in nature.

However, the good behaviour of the many should not act as a smokescreen to avoid talking about the extreme behaviour of the small minority who make people’s lives a misery on a daily basis. We cannot turn a blind eye to the mindless thuggery and antisocial behaviour of those groups, who run rampant, safe in the knowledge that, even if they are arrested, they are very unlikely to be prosecuted and even less likely to go to jail.

This summer, a significant number of incidents of youth-related antisocial behaviour were reported to me across the south of Scotland—in Haddington, Prestonpans, Longniddry, East Linton and Peebles in the Scottish Borders. Cars were damaged, pensioners were targeted, houses were egged, property was vandalised, young people were attacked and weapons were used.

At Linn Rocks in East Linton, a large group of young people from as far afield as Edinburgh—who were abusing their access to free bus travel—gathered to drink alcohol and consume drugs. They harassed and verbally and physically threatened passers-by. However, the community did not take that lying down. Working with the council’s antisocial behaviour team and Police Scotland, I convened a number of meetings to drive a cross-agency, cross-community approach. Realising the extent of community concerns, Police Scotland took a zero-tolerance approach, and I thank Chief Inspector Ben Leathes for that intervention.

Those actions showed the benefits of a well-organised local authority response, which included East Lothian Council locating a temporary closed-circuit television camera in East Linton. Young people were handcuffed and removed from the area. The community breathed a sigh of relief but, sadly, as is the case with so many other incidents, the problem was displaced, not solved.

Our police are overstretched and woefully underresourced, so they are unable to respond in that way to every case of antisocial behaviour in our communities. In Haddington, there have been reports of underage hooded youths causing damage to shops and abusing and threatening staff because they refused to sell them alcohol. Windows were smashed and two staff members resigned after receiving death threats.

Data has revealed that, between April and June this year, the number of bobbies on the beat in East Lothian dropped to its lowest level since 2008. At the same time, 1,352 incidents of antisocial behaviour were reported.

The effects of incidents of antisocial behaviour have also been felt across the Scottish Borders. In Peebles, sadly, a man in his 80s had his car windscreen smashed and was beaten up. Schoolgirls were kicked in the face and videoed by the perpetrators—a practice that is, sadly, now all too common in such incidents. In Peebles, a total of 56 calls relating to antisocial behaviour were made in the second quarter of this year.

It is unacceptable that, as a result of such behaviour, people in Borders towns have felt unsafe in their communities. That is not the fault of our communities or the police. The buck stops with the Scottish National Party. It has left our police service underresourced since coming to power 16 years ago.

Craig Hoy has made some important points in his contribution so far, but does he not agree that, given that these issues are complex and challenging and that they affect many communities, we all need to take responsibility for finding the solutions together?

Absolutely. I reflect on what happened in East Linton, where people in the community came together with the police and the council to resolve the problem. However, sadly, when I speak to the police, they say that, because of 15 years of SNP neglect, they are simply unable to go into communities in the way that they once were.

Another issue is that, as a result of the lack of policing, many of the youths now believe that they are untouchable. They can repeat the same crimes in the same places time and again. Councils across the south of Scotland are equally underresourced. Despite their best efforts, their antisocial behaviour teams and community wardens are severely overstretched.

As antisocial behaviour incidents intensify, we owe our police, our councils and our communities more than just warm words. We owe them the financial support, the legal framework and a justice system that allows them to do their job. However, sadly, on this and on so many other problems that Scotland faces today, the SNP’s priorities lie elsewhere.

13:11  

I am grateful to Daniel Johnson for bringing the motion to Parliament. I also congratulate him on his speech, which was very measured.

I will not be unique in the chamber. My inbox is full of my constituents’ concerns about this issue, and what they have had to say has been less measured than the remarks by Daniel Johnson.

I have been working with a number of people on this issue for all of the two and a half years that I have been in Parliament. On Monday, I visited one couple’s home, and I received an email this morning about the 89th incident that has occurred in the property next door to them, which is occupied by a young person. Last night, at about 12.25 am, the police turned up on the doorstep, thumping the door and banging on the windows to try to gain access, because they had been called by the occupant of that house on the basis of a threat to life. I do not know what number I said earlier, but it is the 84th occasion on which that has happened. The incident also involved the Scottish Ambulance Service, which is not untypical.

The banging and noise go on until 20 to 1; people are trying to gain entry, but they cannot get in. At 5 past 1, more police arrive, and there is more banging. At a quarter to 2, before the cars go away, they force the door, and the council workmen—bless their cotton socks—arrive at 7 minutes past 2 in the morning.

That is just not acceptable. That kind of behaviour is intolerable, and yet we have nothing in place to deal with it. Lives are being made miserable. The lives of that couple, who live in Bonnybridge, are being made hell; the lady has health issues and the husband is being driven to the very edge by the neighbour’s behaviour. However, we seem to have a police force that is unwilling or unable to act. We often seem to have prosecutors who come across as not being very interested in the rights of victims—that has been my own experience—and we have a judicial system that seems unable to protect communities from violence and fear.

We do not do our young people or the future any favours by not establishing boundaries and saying what is right and what is wrong. Those boundaries are very clear when it comes to behaviour. Some young people are growing up, believing that they can get away with just about anything, and they are more than happy to tell people, whether they be police officers or teachers, their rights—we should ask teachers and police officers about that—because they have no fear of detection or sanction. The police lack the resources to deal with that; the prosecutors probably do not have the resources, either; and the judicial system is almost at breaking point.

However, we must establish boundaries so that young people know what is expected of them and how to live in a civilised society. We have a tradition of civilised living together in our society, and stepping outside of those boundaries must come with consequences. Daniel Johnson called for frank discussion about these issues. These are the things that the people of Scotland are saying. They want to see boundaries and consequences. There must be discouragement for those who are offending and repeat offending.

Those boundaries, clearly, begin at home. Parents are the first line in giving young people a sense of a moral compass and of what is right and what is wrong. Too often, however, the apparatus of Government in Scotland, in one form or another, makes parents second-guess themselves as to whether they are doing the right thing by teaching their children boundaries and what right and wrong are. We must reverse that trend, which so many people feel is happening in our society, by helping and supporting families, not hindering and undermining them.

At First Minister’s question time, my colleague Roz McCall highlighted this week’s news from Fife Council, where those responsible for the eradication of bullying in the public school system said that we should not do anything to upset the bullies. Where are we going?

I appreciate that my time is up. I will conclude by saying that if we think that what we have been doing is going to remedy the situation, we need to think again. We need change, we need boundaries, and we need a sense of right and wrong. There need to be consequences and sanctions.

13:16  

The scenes in Edinburgh and across other parts of Scotland, as described across the chamber today, are hugely concerning. That concern has perhaps been most acutely felt this past month, with Halloween and bonfire night, which appear to be pinch points for such instances of antisocial behaviour. Attacks on police and the misuse of fireworks have seen residents scared to leave their homes. They have led to unacceptable scenes on our streets, and it is right that there must be investigations and assessments of what has happened and why.

We should not see such pinch points within the year as being one off or isolated. As we have heard from colleagues, problems with antisocial behaviour seem to persist at all times of the year and in all parts of the country. I am grateful to my friend Daniel Johnson for bringing this debate to the chamber, because it gives us an opportunity to express the concerns of our communities and to explore, in a constructive way, some of the solutions that we might be able to put forward.

The West Scotland region is affected by antisocial behaviour and violence in many communities. Indeed, I have heard at first hand from constituents about its blight on their lives. In May, there was a spike in antisocial behaviour in Barrhead, and residents felt completely cut off and isolated in many ways due to the behaviour that was taking place in parts of the town. Residents have repeatedly complained about being assaulted in the town centre at night, particularly outside the local Asda store and the local Foundry leisure centre and library. In fact, a group of young people has repeatedly targeted security staff and customers at the Asda in Barrhead and at the Foundry.

Last month, in the neighbouring village of Neilston, there was a reported increase in the number of such incidents, with eggs and stones being thrown at properties. That might seem fairly low level, but just this morning, I spoke to a new young mother, who had found it intimidating when her car was attacked with eggs. Just before Halloween, McGill’s, the local bus company, was forced to suspend services at 5 pm on two routes through the Auchenback estate in Barrhead, because of violent incidents against its drivers and buses. We can see the real impact of such antisocial behaviour, with the communities that I have referred to being cut off.

I have written to the area commander for the police and have engaged with the council to try to work out what the solutions might be. I have also written to the minister, and I hope that she will be able to engage with that correspondence and say what more support can be given by Government to help agencies that are working in the community. I recognise what Daniel Johnson said about the mix of approaches that we need to take in dealing with this.

There is, of course, an issue with police resourcing. Police Scotland will say that it wants to take a multi-agency approach and ensure that it is trauma informed, but that can often be a challenge for the other services involved, which are struggling with resourcing and the availability of staff. Local authorities have had huge cuts to their funding, affecting not only diversionary activities such as youth services but, more fundamentally, social work services. Many young people have traumatic and chaotic lives; they come from families who are not getting the right support, because social workers are always having to respond to crises and are not able to do the more in-depth work that can help divert young people away or to approach them in their own settings.

The Government’s response has been to issue the document “Reviewing Scotland’s Approach to Antisocial Behaviour”. I noted two of its recommendations. The first recognised that a long-term approach is needed, which I think all members in the chamber would acknowledge. The second is that an expert group be convened. I welcome such a proposal, and agree that we should all engage in it, but my concern is that we cannot just say that we are taking a long-term approach, leave the issue to another working group and not see any tangible action.

I am conscious of the time, so I will leave members with that thought. I am keen that the minister should, if she is able to do so, lay out in her closing remarks where that group will go and what tangible action it will take.

13:21  

It is timely to have the chance to speak in the debate, given the shocking behaviour that took place across our capital city over the weekend. On Sunday, riot police in Edinburgh spent bonfire night battling fireworks and petrol bombs—I stress the use of petrol bombs. Police Scotland said that its officers experienced an unprecedented level of violence as they tried to tackle the disorder. They were called to the Niddrie area of Edinburgh on Sunday evening, following reports of antisocial use of fireworks against residents. The riot police, which were part of operation Moonbeam, were then sent in to assist local officers. It is believed that around 50 people were involved in clashes with the police, who came under attack from

“fireworks, petrol bombs and other projectiles.”

The level of disturbance in Niddrie was unacceptable and, frankly, disgusting.

Only four weeks ago, in my column in the local paper, I wrote about the impact of the SNP’s budget cuts and how repeated cost cutting had slashed the number of front-line officers and was contributing to a rise in antisocial behaviour. The events of bonfire night demonstrate, once again, that a hardcore element is determined not only to challenge authority but to positively revel in making ordinary people feel uncomfortable in their own homes and communities. The riot in Niddrie was only the most visible and shocking flashpoint, but outbreaks of antisocial behaviour across the city have meant that police and fire services resources have been stretched to their limits, and they have come under attack across the wider region. With our police stretched to breaking point, the criminals knew that they could get away with it, frankly.

Earlier this week, my constituent Ian, who is a retired police officer, wrote to me to express his concern following the weekend’s events. He said:

“As I predicted, the new legislation is utterly toothless. Pushing down decision making (and blame) to local authorities to create exclusion zones is now proven not to work, especially when there is a greatly reduced police service. The 5th?of November is now seen as an opportunity to indulge in anarchy and the problem, in my opinion, will only get worse if left unchallenged or unchanged.”

I agree that everything that happened last weekend was abhorrent on every level. Does the member recognise that, because of the legislation on offences against emergency workers that has come in, 61 people were charged last year? So far, only two people have been charged with offences relating to last weekend, but investigations are on-going and we expect that more will be charged shortly.

I ask the minister to say in her closing remarks, if she can do so, what were the outcomes of the charges against the individuals who attacked our emergency workers. That is the problem. Petrol bombs were being thrown. I am sorry, but those are not covered in the fireworks legislation at all.

The same policeman told me how much time he had spent dealing with antisocial behaviour and that he considers a ban on fireworks to be a prerequisite. As he said, for some people, 5 November seems to be an excuse for creating mayhem. Giving the police the resources to deal with it would benefit us all year round, for we can all agree that, sadly, antisocial behaviour is not limited to this time of year.

On Friday, I met a father called Niko, who lives in Currie. He was at the end of his tether. His family has been targeted for more than a year by a group of four youths who, dressed in black with hoods up, regularly throw eggs, tins of beans and traffic cones at his possessions, his car and his home. I have seen the shocking videos of that happening. Niko and his family feel that they cannot relax at home. Now that the nights are darker, they will not use the living room at the front of their house or leave the light on, as that encourages those youths more.

The night before Niko came to see me, his local neighbourhood watch group met to discuss the incidents and whether there was anything that they could do. The father of one of the boys who is tormenting Niko’s family came along as well. The school, the police and the parents all feel that their hands are tied. The police are already involved and have been to the house of one of the boys many times. The father of that boy is at his wits’ end and does not feel as though there is anything that he can do about disciplining his son.

On Friday, I will meet the police in the south-west of Edinburgh and will raise that situation and many of the incidents that I have in my case load. Earlier this week, the Minister for Victims and Community Safety, Siobhian Brown, announced a new independent working group to tackle antisocial behaviour. We are already hearing of potential recommendations linked to the confiscation of, or curfews for, the bus passes for under-22s. However, one thing is clear: there is only one group of people who like a working group more than the SNP, and that is the criminals.

13:26  

I congratulate Daniel Johnson on bringing the debate to the chamber and on his thoughtful introduction to it.

In September 2022, Stagecoach said that it would no longer run evening services from Kilmarnock bus station due to antisocial behaviour that was perpetrated by our youth. Gangs were using the free bus pass to travel to other areas to engage in that behaviour. In April 2023, a teenager who attempted to stab a 14-year-old boy to death with a broken bottle at Kilmarnock bus station was jailed for more than four years. In October 2023, a Kilmarnock bus station security worker was left with a broken nose after being assaulted by two teenagers, who were subsequently arrested and charged in connection with the incident and will appear in court.

Daniel Johnson mentioned Covid, which has had an impact on our youth. The lack of social skills could be a driver of some of the violence. Access to youth clubs, scouts, guides, sport, music and art, which I have discussed many times in the chamber, was taken away. Those activities encourage our youth to behave better. They are about self-worth, confidence, resilience and aspiration.

I agree with what Brian Whittle says, but there is also a need for a clear understanding of where the line is between good behaviour and bad behaviour and that consequences flow from bad behaviour. It might not be the kind of discussion that some members in the Parliament want to hear, but that is what the people of Scotland think, and it is what they want to happen.

I do not deny that. There should be consequences to bad behaviour, but there is another side to the coin: we have to create an environment in which we can instil better behaviour. The types of activities that I mentioned enable youth to understand the benefits of working with others and give them the benefit of learning about hard work and understanding where the boundaries lie.

Over a longer time, council funding, funding for our third sector—which is crucial in relation to the issue—and even the funding in our education system, where a lot of the interventions that I have discussed begin, has been eroded. The erosion of that funding is a false economy, as we can see from recent antisocial behaviour. When we do not spend money on one page of a ledger, we need to spend it on another page of the ledger, as we saw with the horrific scenes in Edinburgh.

I have spoken previously about my life experience and my diverse group of friends from such a variety of backgrounds—you could not meet a more diverse group. We were introduced to each other through our intervention with sport, and our lives have been shaped by sport and by the shared togetherness that has come through our passion for sport.

We need to ensure that an opportunity to do that—whatever opportunity it may be—is available for our youth and that it is accessible to all. One side of the coin is about ensuring that there are repercussions for bad behaviour, but it is not just about that—the other side of the coin is that we have to have opportunities available if we want to ensure that our youth can participate.

I am conscious of the number of members who still want to participate in the debate. To allow that to happen, I am minded to accept a motion without notice, under rule 8.14.3, to extend the debate by up to 30 minutes.

Motion moved,

That, under Rule 8.14.3, the debate be extended by up to 30 minutes.—[Daniel Johnson]

Motion agreed to.

13:30  

I also want to start by thanking Daniel Johnson for bringing this very important issue to the chamber, and for allowing us to consider the challenge of bad behaviour generally in our society.

It is not only an issue in Edinburgh Southern, it is not only an issue in Edinburgh—as others have alluded to—and it is not only an issue in Scotland; other parts of the UK face challenges, too.

The truth that we need to acknowledge, which other members have also emphasised, is that most young people behave well and do good things. Our young people have grown up in a challenging time. There was the financial crash and its consequences, austerity, the pandemic and the cost of living crisis and there is war in the world. It is also true, however, that there are, rightly, concerns about a minority of young people who are engaging in very challenging antisocial behaviour, and we cannot underplay those. I fear that the behaviour is getting worse.

There is the behaviour in our schools, which has been discussed and which the Government has on-going work on. The behaviour is happening on our streets and in shops. Others have talked about the challenges when it comes to big supermarkets, but it is also an issue for small-to-medium enterprises in our communities. For example, Argonaut Books in Leith had hundreds of pounds worth of damage caused to it by a small minority of young people coming in and throwing eggs around the shop.

It is a huge issue and, as Daniel Johnson rightly argued, a complex one. There is a broad range of reasons for the phenomenon. It is a trend influenced by social media and it has been shown on occasion to be influenced by organised crime.

I am very grateful to the member for taking an intervention. I cannot disagree with anything that he has said so far, but does he agree that during that period of time there has also been an erosion of community spirit, coupled with a rise in poor mental health, and that that complex web is contributing to this kind of behaviour?

That is absolutely true, and it goes back to the context that I mentioned around the financial challenges and the pressures on our society. Our young people have grown up in households that are experiencing pressure and communities that are feeling a collective sense of depression and a lack of optimism because of the position that we are in.

The demand on the state to respond to that is difficult, particularly in the financial circumstances that the UK and Scotland face. The Scottish Government has acted proactively and with initiative, with higher funding for the police service than is the case elsewhere in the UK, the support that it has tried to provide to the Crown Office, the violence reduction unit, Community Justice Scotland, cashback initiatives and increased spending for mental health.

However, there is more to be done, and within that is the challenge of balancing rights and the need to work with partners. I have to say that where I have seen an impact in my constituency, particularly in north Edinburgh, youth work organisations working collaboratively have made the biggest difference.

I have to be honest and say that most of the funding for that has come from trusts and private sources. Therefore, the main message that I want to emphasise is that, yes, there are criminal justice aspects to this issue, but, most importantly, youth work works. The more resource we can find for youth work initiatives in our communities, the bigger the difference we can make.

Lastly, I think that we should have more time to debate the issue in the chamber, because there is a wider challenge about behaviour in our society. Some are to blame, but all of us are responsible. We can all do more—including, I would argue, in this chamber—by looking to set the best example that we can.

13:35  

I am pleased to contribute to the debate and thank Daniel Johnson for securing it. I acknowledge the acute concerns that the motion refers to and I agree that antisocial behaviour by youths is very much on the increase. That is the case not just in Mr Johnson’s Edinburgh constituency but across my region of Mid Scotland and Fife. The sheer scale is deeply worrying and such incidents continue to be reported.

As we have heard, that was borne out over the weekend in the horrific scenes that we saw in Edinburgh, Glasgow and Dundee, where antisocial behaviour and fireworks became a toxic cocktail and emergency service personnel were once again targeted in their line of duty. It was absolutely appalling and I look forward to hearing what the minister says in her summing up.

Only recently in my region, the Alloa and Hillfoots Advertiser highlighted that police patrols were having to be increased in Tillicoultry and Alloa following a rise in youth-related antisocial behaviour. I am extremely concerned at that rise, and that individuals as young as between 12 and 15 were roaming the streets with weapons. Such incidents of antisocial behaviour have been most prevalent in the high streets and town centres. The most worrying was when young individuals were spotted in the early hours wearing masks and attempting to intimidate workers and people who were making local deliveries. Similar reports have come from Stirling city centre. I have long been a supporter of calls for initiatives to ensure the utmost safety for retail and delivery workers, along with our emergency services personnel.

However, the phenomenon is now moving to another level, and there has been talk of the free bus travel for under-22s being questioned. I have had a number of contacts from constituents suggesting that some individuals might be abusing that facility. However, I believe that it is still a minority of youths who are jumping at the opportunity to travel further and create antisocial behaviour in different areas.

Recently, I was delighted to learn of a Clackmannanshire gentleman, Craig McIntosh, who is becoming a peer mentor with a view to engaging with young people. He is focusing on alternative pathways for individuals who have shown risky behaviour in Stirling city centre. I believe that the post was funded by Stirling Community Enterprise, Go Forth Stirling business improvement district and Police Scotland and that the majority of the funding has come from the Stirlingshire Voluntary Enterprise community justice fund.

That is a real opportunity to show that peer mentoring can draw on people’s past experiences and pass them on to the next generation. That role is an opportunity to help young people to turn their lives around. I wish Mr McIntosh all encouragement as he takes forward that project. It is important that we see further projects like that happening across the community. We have heard about the voluntary sector doing such work and that needs to be advanced.

Police Scotland remains desperately underfunded and undermanned, which risks the force being undermined, as we have heard today. There is a legal responsibility on parents and guardians to ensure that young people in their care are not exposed to likely harm. That harm comes in the form of not only mental and physical harm to themselves but harm to others and antisocial behaviour. Police Scotland also needs to robustly enforce legislation to ensure that individuals who perpetrate any such offences are tackled with the full force of the law to ensure that they stop and that they know how the land lies.

13:39  

I thank Daniel Johnson for bringing the debate to the chamber. It seems, from what we have heard, that antisocial behaviour is a problem right across Scotland. I want to share briefly the experience of what is happening right now in Aberdeen.

This year, the number of incidents of antisocial behaviour in Union Square, Aberdeen’s main city centre shopping centre, which joins on to the bus station, has surged, with some truly shocking incidents being reported. The Press and Journal told the story of a whistleblower worker, who said:

“What’s happening is wrong. Union Square is the most hostile and dangerous place I have ever worked.”

He went on to describe how the toilets have become party rooms, where kids as young as 12 lock themselves away

“to drink, roll joints and even have underage sex.”

He also told of a shopping trolley being thrown off the multistorey car park, nearly striking a woman below.

Police have been drafted in to try to train security guards, and senior officers are working closely with Union Square management to equip businesses with the right tools to handle youngsters who are hell bent on wreaking havoc. However, security guards and shop owners seem confused as to what action they can take. Often, they are concerned that, if they were to manhandle a youth out of their shop, they may be charged.

Douglas Lumsden is making an excellent speech, but it is very troubling. He mentions shop workers and others not knowing how to deal with youth who are causing these difficulties. That is doubly, or triply, true of teachers. They desperately need clear guidance on what they can and cannot do, but they are not getting it. The Government is putting that off, with more talk and less action.

I completely agree with Stephen Kerr—teachers, as well as shop owners, need to be assured that they will not be penalised for protecting themselves or their business.

It is worrying that, from what we have heard today, this type of behaviour seems to be on the increase across Scotland. I call on the devolved Government to urgently carry out a piece of work to understand whether such behaviour is actually on the increase, and to try to understand the reasons behind it.

Daniel Johnson and Craig Hoy suggested that free bus travel may be having an impact. I agree with Sue Webber that the pressure on police resources is partly to blame, and the freeze on police recruitment will only make these matters worse.

Whatever the cause, the devolved Government needs to act. This behaviour by groups of people is making places feel unsafe and threatening the viability of some businesses, driving people away from our city centres and putting our shop workers into situations that they should never have to deal with. It is those workers that I want to finish on.

It was reported that the Nespresso store in Union Square closed after workers said that they faced assault and sexual harassment. We need to act—more needs to be done. Again, I thank Daniel Johnson for bringing this matter before us today, and I look forward to hearing what action the Government will take to tackle the problem.

13:42  

First, I thank Daniel Johnson for raising this important issue, and I thank everybody who has taken part in the debate. I also thank Daniel Johnson for all his historical work for the protection of retail workers.

I have appreciated hearing from members about how their constituencies have been affected by antisocial behaviour. The incidents in some constituencies, especially last weekend, were deeply concerning and were—quite rightly—raised in the chamber earlier this week. Many are still under investigation by the police, who are treating those matters with the seriousness and severity that they deserve.

I recognise that, as we know, and as Craig Hoy and Ben Macpherson acknowledged in their contributions, the vast majority of young people are not involved in antisocial behaviour, nor in the justice system.

That is just not true. It is the vast majority of young people who are the biggest victims of this behaviour, because they are often living in fear themselves, at school and in other places where they should be safe. The minister simply says, “Oh, the majority behave themselves”—which they do—“and are not affected,” but that is just not the case.

I disagree—I would say that the majority of youth are not perpetrators of antisocial behaviour.

No, they are the victims of it.

It is a small minority. Indeed, many people who take part in antisocial behaviour are not youths. It is unacceptable behaviour by a minority in our society. Regardless of who is involved, I am clear that everybody has the right to be and feel safe in their community. That is what is set out in our justice vision for Scotland, and I know that that view is shared by members across the chamber. Everyone has the right to go about their business, work and home life in safety and without fear.

We heard from Ben Macpherson a story about youths going into a shop and throwing eggs. What action could the shopkeeper take in that instance without any fear being charged?

After any such incident, they should call the police in the first instance.

Some of the events from the past weekend put innocent people in our communities at risk and put those setting the fires and throwing the projectiles at risk. Attacks against those whose job it is to keep our communities safe are never acceptable, and I am grateful to Police Scotland, the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service and their partners for their bravery in going about their job and for their professional response to such dangerous and thoughtless behaviour.

Members have referred to the abuse that shop staff face and the theft of items from shops and businesses. Again, that is not acceptable. I urge any affected business or individual to contact the police, who continue to focus on keeping our communities safe from harm and on investigating criminal activity.

I absolutely agree with the minister that people working in shops should contact the police in such situations. The problem is that they very often do not get a response. It is not because the police do not want to respond but because, quite simply, there are not enough response officers available to do that. Does the minister agree that we need to look again at the balance between central specialised resource and the number of officers that we have in local divisions doing response and community work?

Minister, I can give you the time back.

We are reviewing—I will come to this later in my speech—how we address this increase in antisocial behaviour, but I agree with the member.

As police are often the first line of response to such disorder, policing continues to be a priority for the Scottish Government. We are investing £1.45 billion in policing in 2023-24, which is an increase of 6.3 per cent, and an additional £80 million in the resource budget. I have heard members say in the debate that there have been police cuts, but that is not accurate.

Police Scotland is strengthening its approach to dealing with acquisitive crime, including shoplifting, through the sharing of regional best practice and through taking the lead role in the Scottish partnership against acquisitive crime. The partnership draws together key organisations from across society to provide a robust multi-agency approach to acquisitive crime and support activity at local level, which is so important. The partnership includes Police Scotland, the Scottish Government and Retailers Against Crime.

As many members are aware, and some have acknowledged in their contributions, Police Scotland and local authorities lead on interventions to address antisocial behaviour at a local level. Partners working on the ground are always best placed to understand the issues that local communities face and how they can best be addressed.

I know that great partnership working is taking place throughout the country, which I very much encourage. I recently visited the Inverclyde partnership hub to learn first hand about key agencies such as the police, local authorities, social housing associations, the health and social care partnership, the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service and the British Transport Police working together to address antisocial behaviour in the local community.

Earlier this week, I was pleased to publish “Scotland’s approach to antisocial behaviour: review findings”.

Will the member take an intervention?

Briefly.

Does the minister think that the freeze in police recruitment will make the issue better or worse?

Just for clarity, 1,418 new recruits have joined Police Scotland since 2022.

The review of Scotland’s approach to antisocial behaviour is based on engagement work that the Scottish Government did with the Scottish Community Safety Network to assess the appetite for reviewing our current approach to antisocial behaviour. The report’s findings focus on moving towards a more preventative approach and recognising the importance of preventing antisocial behaviour from occurring in the first place, which will also continue to better tackle antisocial behaviour and provide better support for victims.

Douglas Lumsden, I am not sure whether you are aware of this work—

Please speak through the chair.

—that is on-going, but I have accepted the recommendations and I am setting up a working group on antisocial behaviour. That will consider the effectiveness of current—

I am sorry—how much time do I have, Presiding Officer?

I can give you another minute, minister.

Okay. In that case, I want to address one issue that was raised time and again regarding bus passes. It is important to remember that most of our young people who travel by bus behave appropriately. The entitlement card is also used to access a variety of national and local public services across Scotland, such as free school meals and cashless catering. Therefore, it would not be appropriate for transport operators to remove cards from card holders due to the impact that that could have—[Interruption.]

The minister is concluding her speech.

—on access to other services. Furthermore, the Scottish Government has the power to withdraw or suspend a travel card if an eligible person knowingly allows it to be used by another person. The travel scheme does not make provision for blocking cards in response to allegations of antisocial or other inappropriate behaviour.

Tackling allegations of antisocial behaviour is a matter for the police and local authorities. However, we will continue to look at what might be possible and advisable and keep that under review.

Thank you very much, minister. That concludes the debate and I suspend this meeting of Parliament until 2.30.

13:51 Meeting suspended.  

14:30 On resuming—