Official Report 1001KB pdf
Education and Skills
The next item of business is portfolio question time, and the portfolio is education and skills. Members who wish to ask a supplementary question should press their request-to-speak button during the relevant question.
Question 1 has not been lodged.
Apprenticeships (Healthcare)
To ask the Scottish Government whether it will provide an update on the action that it is taking to develop apprenticeship models for healthcare workers. (S6O-05252)
Health and social care is a key growth sector and will continue to be a modern apprenticeship funding priority in 2025-26, as we support opportunities for young people across Scotland. To ensure that those opportunities align with the sector’s evolving needs, Skills Development Scotland is reviewing the current health and social care modern apprenticeship frameworks. We have also recently launched the operating department practitioner—ODP—graduate apprenticeship, which enables perioperative staff to gain degree-level qualifications while ensuring safe and high-quality care. In addition, a foundation apprenticeship in social services and healthcare provides school learners with an early pathway into the sector.
I appreciate that expanding the apprenticeship model and earn-as-you-learn routes for healthcare workers across professions creates opportunities for people who might not have had the chance to attend university. It also offers the chance to grow skills in local areas. In the past, when I have asked about the apprenticeship model for allied health professions, the Government has pointed to the development of the next generation higher national certificate for AHP subjects, which could offer people a recognised pay-as-you-earn route into those professions. Has progress been made on that since the start of the year? When might we see those routes across the allied health professions?
I am glad that Carol Mochan has raised that point, although I did not hear the totality of her question due to the technical issues. I will take away her specific request, look at the Official Report and engage with health colleagues before providing her with a written update, if she is agreeable to that.
I will do that within the wider context in which £185 million is being invested in supporting 25,500 new modern apprenticeships in Scotland. In addition, the health and social care sector is part of the sport, health and social care occupational grouping, which recorded the highest share of modern apprenticeship starts in 2024-25, at 26.1 per cent, which represents an increase of 2.8 percentage points from the previous year.
A number of members would like to ask supplementary questions.
About 400,000 apprenticeship opportunities have been delivered for young people in Scotland since 2008, which underlines the Scottish National Party Government’s commitment to the value of apprenticeships. What work is under way to ensure that those opportunities are accessible to all and are not hindered by financial circumstances?
Clare Haughey has raised important points. The Government is committed to making apprenticeships inclusive and accessible to all, which is an on-going process. As I mentioned, this year, we are investing £185 million to deliver 25,500 new modern apprenticeships, 5,000 foundation apprenticeships and more than 1,200 graduate apprenticeships, alongside continued support for more than 38,000 apprentices who are already in training.
To promote inclusion, we offer enhanced funding contributions to support young people with disabilities, those with care experience and those who reside in remote and rural areas. More widely, free bus travel for under-22s helps young people to access training and employment opportunities. All those measures help to ensure that the apprenticeship route becomes even more viable and remains an inclusive route into skilled work for all.
Lothian MSPs have been contacted by newly qualified midwives who have expressed concern that they cannot access further experience without gaining employment and securing a permanent position. There is no clear pathway for midwives to complete their preceptorship before applying for permanent positions in NHS Scotland. Has the Scottish Government considered the approach of the Welsh Government, for example, which provides a job guarantee scheme for newly qualified midwives that guarantees them a minimum of 22 hours of work, allowing them to achieve their preceptorship before they apply for jobs?
I am grateful to Miles Briggs for raising those points. In my capacity as a constituency MSP, I have engaged on some of those matters over the past few years. We have a proactive approach to helping people to train in midwifery, and we want as many midwives as possible to be able to enhance their skills and experience as part of that, taking account of the challenges that he mentioned. We also want those people to stay in Scotland and work in midwifery here.
With respect, this is a matter that needs the engagement of health ministers and others in the Scottish Government, so I will take the point away and provide a detailed response to Miles Briggs at a later date.
On the same subject, a cohort of qualified midwives are not getting jobs. Yesterday, I hosted a round-table meeting in the Parliament on maternity services, and the issue that came up time and again was the lack of workforce planning. My question to the minister is simple: why has the number of apprenticeship starts in key health roles fallen in some areas in recent years? When will the Government finally produce a joined-up piece of work that gives a clear plan to show how apprenticeships will close those gaps?
First, we want to provide equality of access to different educational opportunities, whether in midwifery or in other roles. The fact that we have state-funded education that is free for the learner helps people to enter the profession or area of study that is right for them.
How we ensure that we are planning appropriately and retaining people effectively is an important wider challenge for us all to consider. I know that the Government is focused on working across portfolios, and we will have updates on skills in the period ahead. That is also something for the wider Parliament to focus on in this important period in which we want to make sure that we are not only training people for our workforce of the future but ensuring that they stay and can develop.
We do it for teachers, so why can we not do it in health?
In relation to the way in which training is provided, regardless of the profession, there is engagement between training providers and the industries or services that take on and develop those people. As I said, workforce planning is part of the wider skills planning that the Government is undertaking, executing and implementing. I look forward to giving Martin Whitfield and other members of the Parliament updates in due course.
Question 3 has been withdrawn.
Education (Kindergarten Phase)
To ask the Scottish Government whether it has given any further consideration to initiating a consultation on the establishment of a kindergarten phase for children in Scotland. (S6O-05254)
Play-based and child-centred approaches are key to our approach to children’s learning, particularly in the early years. That is what the curriculum for excellence already delivers, and our approach is underpinned by the internationally recognised national practice guidance for early years that is set out in “Realising the ambition: Being Me”.
As I have discussed with Mr MacGregor previously, a kindergarten stage would represent a major shift in our education system. I believe that our focus at the current time should be on further embedding our play-based approaches and, equally, analysing their impact, but I welcome further discussion on that.
I know that the minister is well aware of Upstart Scotland’s campaign to introduce a kindergarten stage. As she has said, I have raised that issue a number of times already.
Upstart notes that countries with well-resourced play-based kindergarten approaches in early education have better child development outcomes, while children in countries where the formal school starting age is as low as five, such as Scotland and England, face growing health, attainment and wellbeing challenges.
Although building such a system would take time and resources, a few years of care can clearly have long-term benefits. Therefore, how would the potential introduction of a kindergarten phase align with the Scottish Government’s current early learning and childcare policies?
I appreciate the points that Mr MacGregor has made. I am aware of the view that better outcomes in other countries are potentially associated with a later school starting age. Of course, Mr MacGregor will know that, although those countries are comparable to Scotland, they are independent and have full control over all levers and resources that are needed to help to, for example, eradicate child poverty.
In the meantime, I share the view that we have heard from stakeholders that full implementation of the approach in “Realising the ambition” at the early level would go a long way towards delivering the same benefits without the need for more fundamental systemic reform. I add that it is important to understand the impact of our deferrals policy.
I believe that our focus should be on understanding the impact of policy changes that have been made fairly recently before considering more fundamental reform. However, I think that this is an important conversation to have and to keep open.
It is now evident, through studies that have been conducted across the world, that a kindergarten approach is beneficial to a child’s development, and I welcome the positive way in which the minister is open to that. The model gives children time and space to learn through exploration, relationships and safe environments. It has been proven to lead to stronger language and communication skills, better emotional wellbeing and improved problem solving, and it has the potential to narrow the attainment gap. It is not a soft option; it is the way to go, and it can improve academic performance in the later years of a child’s education. Given all that, can the minister explain why we have a timid approach to the kindergarten model and why we are not embracing it, with both hands, for children in Scotland?
I appreciate the points that Ms McCall has made, but I do not think that we are taking a timid approach. As I have said, “Realising the ambition” is internationally recognised in what it aims to achieve.
At the moment, I am focused on ensuring that the guidance is fully embedded and implemented in our early years provision. That will have huge benefits, some of which Ms McCall has directly referred to. However, I am very open to continuing these conversations, because I am fully aware of the benefits and outcomes that we are seeing in other countries.
Early Years Education and Childcare (Impact of Increased Provision)
To ask the Scottish Government what assessment it has made of the impact of increasing funded early years education and childcare to 1,140 hours per year for three and four-year-olds and qualifying two-year-olds. (S6O-05255)
As a result of the priority that the Scottish Government has placed on investing in funded early learning and childcare, families across Scotland have benefited from the provision of 1,140 hours of high-quality funded ELC since 2021.
Our interim evaluation, which was published in 2024, showed that uptake of the expanded hours is high, and there are promising signs that the expansion is delivering improvements in flexibility, accessibility and affordability. We expect to publish in early 2026 our overall evaluation of the expansion’s outcomes for children, parents and families over the period 2018 to 2025.
Many of my constituents have praised the increase in hours for their children, because of the impact on the parents’ ability to work and on the finances of the household. How does the Government plan to monitor the benefits of the increase in relation to child development, closing the attainment gap and workforce sustainability across local authority areas, in order for that welcome change to continue to work for the children and families of Scotland?
There is no doubt that providing all families with 1,140 hours of fully funded early learning and childcare for three and four-year-olds since 2021—and ours is the only Government in the United Kingdom to have done so—will have benefited families financially, but we also need to understand the impact that it has had on the measures that James Dornan has outlined.
We are currently evaluating the expansion to 1,140 hours, to better understand the difference that it is making for our children and families, and to consider things such as accessibility, flexibility, quality and take-up. As I have said, we expect to publish the overarching report in early 2026.
There are a number of supplementary questions.
I want to return to the difference in paid rates for private, voluntary and independent nurseries and those for council nurseries. According to a recent survey by the National Day Nurseries Association, 76 per cent of its members found that the fees received from the councils did not cover their costs and that the same proportion were either breaking even or making a loss. Members said that the conditions were in “a terrible state” and that
“Staff are on their knees and nobody ... cares.”
The minister knows all of that, because I have been telling her repeatedly about it for years on end.
Please ask a question, Mr Rennie.
The time for reviews is over. When will there be a fair rate for doing this really important job?
Mr Rennie knows that I am very switched on to this issue. As well as Mr Rennie and other members in the chamber telling me about it, I go out and engage directly with providers and hear their concerns face to face, so I am very aware of the issue.
Mr Rennie will be aware that the key recommendation of the rates review was to improve the cost data that is available to inform rate setting, and the Diffley Partnership was appointed to lead a national cost data-collection exercise. Those cost surveys were open for providers to complete earlier this year. The surveys reflected the input of providers, and lessons were learned from the previous cost data-collection exercises that have been carried out. I will be presented with that data soon, and then I will consider next steps.
Will the review that the minister is talking about capture an explanation as to why working parents are finding the funded hours inflexible?
As I said in response to James Dornan, the interim evaluation that we published in 2024 showed promising signs that the expansion was delivering improvements in flexibility. However, as I have said, the overall evaluation will be published in the new year. Of course, we will need to consider our next steps to ensure that our offer is working for all families, if it flags important issues such the one that Mr Whitfield has raised.
Willie Rennie is right. He has been going on about the private and voluntary sector providers for years and years—and quite right, too.
The minister has disclosed that she is about to receive data, so I think that members will want to hear what the timeline is. When will the data be delivered to the minister, and when will the minister come to the chamber with that information? Will we hear anything in this session of Parliament about this burning issue?
The final report and the data output tables from the ELC cost surveys will be shared with the sector in due course. I believe that the most important thing is to share them with the sector first. As I have said, I will be looking at the numbers and the data that come from that, and I will consider what steps we as a Government will take to bring more regularity to the rates.
On top of the other measures that we have taken—[Interruption.] I am sorry, but the member is shouting at me from a sedentary position when I am trying to answer his question.
Or not answering it.
What I am saying is that the data will be published, and we will consider next steps, on top of the measures that we have already taken to support the PVI sector.
Before we move to the next question, I should point out that I have called a number of supplementaries and, although we have a bit of time in hand due to questions not being lodged, I would be grateful if, when questions are asked, we could listen to the answers.
Skills Development (North-east Fishing Industry)
To ask the Scottish Government how it is supporting skills development to promote the future of the north-east fishing industry. (S6O-05256)
One of the ways in which we support skills development in Scotland’s important fishing industry is through our marine fund Scotland. In the north-east, examples include funding a training manager within Opportunity North East’s seafood transformation project, and providing funding to the North East Fishermen’s Training Association to invest in training equipment to allow fishers to undertake Maritime and Coastguard Agency courses. The fund has also provided more than £800,000 to Seafish to provide safety training to fishers across Scotland.
The recent update on our fisheries management strategy delivery plan set out our commitment to continue to work in partnership with our fishing industry and Seafish to identify and support the delivery of actions in support of safety and career development training.
Vocational qualifications are a vital route for young people to enter the fishing industry, thereby becoming the next generation of skippers, deckhands and engineers and taking on what is an important way of life in the north-east and other parts of Scotland. However, according to new figures that I have obtained from Skills Development Scotland, no new vocational qualifications have been awarded in sea fishing since 2019. There were no north-east starts at all last year, and fewer than five workboat diplomas were given out of a total of just under 90 maritime qualifications in the past five years. What is the Scottish National Party Government really doing to guarantee the future of a totemic industry for the north-east, and is the minister content to allow the skills pathway to decline and to take away a way of life with it?
To give some context in answering the question, I think it important to acknowledge that there has been a record number of vocational qualifications this year. However, I do take the member’s points, and I appreciate why they are of interest not just to him as a representative of the north-east, but in relation to the common good of Scotland and this important industry.
If the member would furnish me and other ministers with the full details of the situation in his region, we would be happy to look into it. There are a lot of opportunities in his region—as well as some challenges, which he highlights in the chamber regularly—and we want to ensure that the fishing industry and other opportunities in the north-east are maximised for our young people and those who are retraining.
There are a number of supplementary questions. Before calling them, I remind members that the substantive question is on skills development in relation to the fishing industry in the north-east.
I welcome the commitments in this year's programme for government on improving careers support and advice. How is the Scottish Government engaging with stakeholders to support every young person on the path that works best for them, including in relation to access to local industries?
Minister, if you could tie your response to the substantive question, I would be grateful.
In order to make sure that individuals and our young people can access local industries, including our important fishing industry—
Members: Ah!
—it is vital that we improve careers support for all ages. That is being taken forward as part of our reform agenda.
The career services collaborative, for example, which I recently engaged with during Scottish careers week, brings together partners from across the system to drive forward careers improvements. We are also engaging with employers through the developing the young workforce network, which has connections with employers throughout local areas, and through regional employer networks and industry bodies, some of which were mentioned earlier. Of course, we are also engaging with educators, colleges, universities, third sector organisations and young people to make sure that they are aware of the different opportunities.
The fishing industry in the north-east of Scotland will, of course, have to rely on the existence of apprenticeships and skills, but the Government is systematically failing in that respect. The minister has now written to the Education, Children and Young People Committee to say that crucial decisions in relation to the Government’s Tertiary Education and Training (Funding and Governance) (Scotland) Bill, which contains its only proposals on skills, have not yet been taken. The letter gives as one option Skills Development Scotland delivering “a managed service”, because the due diligence to make the change that the Government has proposed has not yet been done.
The Government’s woefully low ambition in simply rejigging quangos—which will fail many in the north-east fishing industry—is not even that now. Instead, the Government is legislating to kick the can down the road and diverting millions of pounds from opportunities in the process.
When will the minister take this decision? How much longer will staff, employers, colleges and learners in the north-east have to wait to find out what their future looks like? Is he just going to accept the inevitable—that this Government’s plans are unworkable and that he should go back to the drawing board?
We had significant discussion on the bill that the member mentioned at during its stage 2 consideration both yesterday and last week. I must say that I find the Scottish Labour Party’s approach to the whole issue quite perplexing. On the one hand, it states that it wants to increase opportunities for young people and to be a constructive part of that process. In her question, however, the member quoted out of context aspects of a letter that I sent in good faith to the committee to update it on the implementation process, should the bill be the will of Parliament and passed.
I am working hard with members across the chamber, including with the member herself, and she has put forward some constructive ideas, despite the unfair negativity in her question. I am looking forward to working on the bill ahead of stage 3. This is not about diverting resource from skills provision, but about how we readjust the skills system in Scotland to meet the needs of the next part of the 21st century, when we will have to be more agile and efficient and to provide opportunities.
We are providing a record number of modern apprenticeships, and we know that there is unmet demand that we want to meet. I look forward to some of those apprentices coming from the fishing industry.
I call Willie Rennie. Very briefly, please.
In the north-east of Fife, we have significant problems with recruiting crew for the local boats. The local schools used to provide courses for young people to access the industry, but they seem to have dried up. Will the minister look again at the provision in every community across Scotland, including in the north-east of Fife?
I thank the member for raising those important points. His question builds on some of the discussion that we had at stage 2 of the Tertiary Education and Training (Funding and Governance) (Scotland) Bill about niche provision that we must ensure is in place, if we are to meet the goal of retaining skills that have been important in important industries in certain areas, including in the north-east of Fife and the north-east of Scotland.
If Willie Rennie wants to engage with me and the Government more widely on those points, I will be happy to try to assist him constructively, including as part of collaborative engagement with local skills or training providers, such as colleges or other entities.
Question 7 has not been lodged.
English for Speakers of Other Languages (Protests against Adult Classes in Schools)
To ask the Scottish Government what assessment it has made of the impact on adult English (ESOL) classes that are held on school premises of the reported far-right protests that have taken place outside the schools in opposition to these. (S6O-05258)
The Scottish Government recognises the important role that ESOL plays in supporting the integration of people whose first language is not English. Language is fundamental in understanding information from public services, gaining employment and participating in community activities. It is the statutory responsibility of all local authorities to manage their school estate. However, there is no place for racism, prejudice and intolerance to be projected in and around Scotland’s schools. Our children, our school staff, parents and everyone who visits our schools, for any reason, deserve and have the right to feel safe. Making anyone in a school community feel unsafe is completely unacceptable.
ESOL classes such as those taking place in Seaton in Aberdeen are for adults. Some of those adults may be parents or carers of school pupils, some may be Ukrainian or Polish, and some may be asylum seekers. They all just want to improve their English to help them to live in our communities, yet they are being targeted by far-right racists. I hope that the Scottish Government agrees that it is totally unacceptable for education to be targeted and disrupted in that way.
What support will the Scottish Government provide to schools and councils to counter the misinformation and far-right agitation that is fuelling the protests, to protect family learning hubs and to deter racist fearmongering? What strategies can be put in place to defend inclusive adult education in our communities?
I very much recognise Maggie Chapman’s strength of feeling on the issue, which I share. Earlier this year, I visited Glasgow City Council’s ESOL curricular network in a school in Glasgow, and I heard from staff and pupils learning English as an additional language about the fantastic work that is under way across the city of Glasgow, which demonstrates the approach to inclusion and integration that is pivotal in our communities.
The Government has announced £200,000 of funding for work with the Scottish Trades Union Congress on the united workplaces project, which is supporting our trade unions to promote equality and diversity in the workplace. Wider work is also under way, including through Time for Inclusive Education and the digital discourse initiative, which is working with schools to empower teachers to respond to some of those challenging issues more broadly. The issues have also been raised with me by the teaching trade unions, and we will continue to work with Education Scotland to best support our teaching workforce in responding to some of those challenging topics in schools.
We have a bit of time in hand over the course of the afternoon, but I want to protect as much time for the debate as I can. I will take a couple of supplementary questions, but they will need to be brief, as will the responses.
The role of disinformation is increasingly alarming in today’s age. We have seen hateful online rhetoric spread rapidly to incite division. What resources are available to schools to increase children and young people’s awareness and resilience to online disinformation?
It is fair to say that disinformation is being used across Scotland and the United Kingdom to stoke division—we are all aware of that. As I mentioned, there is no place for that discrimination or intolerance in Scotland’s schools.
In response to Ms Chapman’s question, I mentioned the work that is happening through the Time for Inclusive Education campaign and the digital discourse initiative. Yesterday, I was in Boroughmuir high school, meeting pupils and staff to learn more about the mentors in violence prevention project, a peer-to-peer piece of work that the Scottish Government also supports. The project helps young people in secondary 6, for example, to work with their secondary 1 counterparts and to tackle some of those issues on a peer-led basis. Those are examples of what the Scottish Government is supporting at the current time, but we remain open to working with Education Scotland on these challenging topics.
I will allow a very brief question from Mercedes Villalba.
Seaton primary school in my region has been the target of anti-migrant disruption twice in the past week alone. Successive Governments have allowed the poor to get poorer while the rich get richer. However, once again, it is migrants who are being blamed. Does the minister agree that those far-right protests disrupt not just education but our whole communities by sowing division? Is it not the case that the real solution to poverty, homelessness and unemployment is ending the gross inequality between us and the billionaires—
Cabinet secretary.
—and not attacking our hard-working friends and neighbours?
Cabinet secretary.
I very much agree with the sentiment of Mercedes Villalba’s question, although I know that she was slightly cut short in asking it. Such protests disrupt education and our communities, and intimidate our educators and children and young people. There can be no place for that in Scotland’s schools.
I suggest that Mercedes Villalba was not cut short.
That concludes portfolio questions. There will be a brief pause before we move to the next item of business to allow the front-bench teams to change.
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