Social Justice and Social Security Committee

Meeting date: Thursday, September 14, 2023

Official Report 590KB pdf

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Social Justice Priorities

Welcome back to our final public agenda item today. We will now discuss other priorities that are relevant to the committee. Thank you for staying with us, cabinet secretary. I invite members to ask questions, starting with Katy Clark.

Cabinet secretary, in “Equality, opportunity, community: New leadership—a fresh start”, the First Minister stated that there would be

“some tough decisions to ensure that we target every pound we spend and invest in order to get the maximum value, ensuring it reaches those that need it the most.”

How have those tough decisions affected the measures that were set out in the programme for government, and have you had to change or refocus priorities?

The First Minister has made it clear, as cabinet secretaries do regularly, that we are in a challenging financial time and context, and, as a Government, we need to take that very seriously. Our medium-term financial strategy set out some of the challenges of, for example, sustained high inflation caused by the economic shocks that Scotland has faced. Inevitably, that has had an impact, so, yes, tough decisions will have to be made.

I will give an example of the context that we are in. As I think I mentioned in my introductory remarks, the block grant funding was 4.8 per cent lower in real terms at the time that this budget was set than it was in 2021-22. Therefore, clearly, there has been an impact on national Government because of the mini-budget, Brexit and austerity, which present us with that challenge.

Now that we have that context ahead of us, the First Minister has laid out for stakeholders how we can best use our resources, and we are trying hard to do that. I touched on some of the work that goes on in Government to ensure that we analyse how we are using the finances that we have in the right way through the best start, bright futures programme board, the ministerial group and so on to constantly check that we are using the money in the most effective way possible.

That will be on the minds of all cabinet secretaries as we move forward in the budget process to see what stakeholders are asking us to do and what we can do within the budget. That will require us to take tough decisions across Government. I cannot go into those today, as we are at the foothills of the budget process for next year, but that context will be live for us throughout the process.

How do you go about assessing the potential impact of policies to ensure that resources are focused on the policies that are likely to have the biggest impact?

I can give you examples of some of the work that we have been doing, and if the committee requires any further detail, we can go into that, too.

I highlight, for example, some of the impact assessments that are undertaken when policies are being developed and on which we work very closely with stakeholders. It is very important that we have the analysis and modelling to support “Best Start, Bright Futures”, because we can use that to see what impact we are having through our policies and to challenge ourselves as to what more we can do and whether the money is being used for the best opportunities. The modelling also has to take account of impacts from elsewhere—and outwith the Scottish Government’s powers—on child poverty levels, but the modelling itself is very important, because an evidence-based approach is critical.

Another example is social security. Clearly, a great deal of work goes into the development of social security policies with those with lived experience as well as with stakeholders to ensure that we deliver the best possible benefit in the best possible way that can reach the maximum number of people. Earlier, we touched on the issue of take-up. Clearly, we are very committed to that; after all, we have a benefit take-up strategy, unlike the UK Government, which does not.

Will you give consideration to how much of that work can be shared with the committee so that we can assess whether we think that you have come to the right conclusions?

We are keen to work on that area, because I think that it will benefit the Government, too. We have done a little bit of that, and I have no doubt that we will do more of it when we come to our budget scrutiny, given the many asks that are made of Government and the many challenges that the Government faces in delivering on those asks. Such considerations are not just financial but practical with regard to how long it will take to implement a policy, whether primary or secondary legislation will be required or, indeed, whether changes to the agency’s social security system will be required. We are very thoughtful about such things.

I would think that a great deal is already being published. I would be happy for Julie Humphreys to come in, as the work that we do around this annually is really important.

When we published “Best Start, Bright Futures”, we also published its underpinning evaluation strategy, a key component of which was the cumulative impact assessment of all the policies that the Government put in place and their impact. Alongside the annual report on “Best Start, Bright Futures” that we published in June, we provided an updated cumulative impact assessment that drew on a huge amount of data from across Government on the policies that we are putting in place and their impact, particularly on the six priority family groups.

That is really helpful.

It is reassuring to hear that you are taking an evidence-based approach to monitoring all of this—I am sure that you will do the same with regard to my calls, which I cannot fund myself, for a summer supplement Scottish child payment. I am not saying that it should happen; I just want to make sure that it is put into the matrix along with everything else to find out whether it would provide best value in delivering the outcomes that we want.

My question is about how we monitor need. What is your latest assessment of the impact of the cost of living crisis on struggling families? Of course, it will be a snapshot in time, but how would we monitor that more generally and on an on-going basis, given the cost of living crisis that we are currently experiencing?

I mentioned in my introductory remarks—Julie Humphreys has just touched on it, too—the modelling that is being done on the 90,000 children who have been lifted out of poverty because of Scottish Government policies. It is a very important aspect of what we do.

Let me put that in context with regard to the impact on the Scottish Government budget of delivering such policies. We have allocated almost £3 billion last year and this year to support policies that tackle poverty and protect people as far as possible from the cost of living crisis, and we recognise that as a very important aspect of the Government’s work. That is a significant investment and it is the right thing to do, but everything that we do in that area means that we are not doing something somewhere else.

A specific example is the £127 million that we used to mitigate specific UK Government welfare policies. I think that it was Mr Doris who suggested, in a recent debate, that we should view the Scottish child payment, which amounts to more than £400 million, as a mitigation measure, because—to be frank—if universal credit was at a sufficient level, there might be no need for the Scottish Government to continue to support children to the extent that we are doing.

Mitigation is clearly important, and we need to do it, but it is not without its implications for other parts of the budget. I am happy to go into more detail on that almost £3 billion, either now or in writing, should that be of use to the committee.

Thank you. I suspect that, in my eagerness to lobby my own Government in a public committee session, I lost focus on what my question should have been, so—with apologies to the convener—I will go back to it now.

How do we monitor, on an on-going basis, the impact of the cost of living crisis on families who are struggling? What process would the Government carry out around that? As a committee, we would be keen to know what more you would prioritise doing.

The monitoring for “Best Start, Bright Futures” that we have already discussed will pick up the impacts of that. The Scottish Government is investing almost £3 billion, which would be having more of an impact if we did not have high inflation, the UK Government’s welfare policies and other external factors that are impacting on people. That modelling work will pick up the fact that, although the Scottish Government is making an impact, it is clear that we would be making more of an impact if the financial context was not so difficult.

I hope that that explains the position to the committee in the time that I have available, but I am happy to provide more information in writing about how that modelling is done, if that would assist.

The committee would very much welcome that. Thank you.

Cabinet secretary, I take you back to the first question that my colleague asked about the information that we have. We all want information so that we can assess how the process is going.

One disappointment was the letter that we received over the summer from David Wallace, the chief executive of Social Security Scotland, who told us that the organisation is not monitoring at all the time from when someone puts in an application for a new benefit to when the application is processed. Is that an issue with how the system was designed by the Scottish Government or with Social Security Scotland not using the system properly? Are you concerned about that? If so, what are you doing about it?

I ask the committee to forgive me—I am not exactly sure about the specific reference that Mr Wallace made in the letter. Clearly, analysis is done by the agency around how long it takes to process a case. That might not give the specific timeframes that Mr Balfour is looking for, but I am happy to refer back to the evidence session to see the exact question that was asked and the letter that was provided, and to provide the information.

I take very seriously, as I know the agency does, the issue of how long processing takes. We know that there is more to do on that issue, and I meet the agency regularly to discuss that and the changes that have been made to improve it.

Aspects around processing times are published in official statistics, so—if you will forgive me, Mr Balfour—I will take a further look at the specific reference that you made and come back with any further clarification that might be needed on that point.

Thank you.

I confirm that we are aware of your request, Mr Balfour, regarding the letter in question, and it will come up in our work programme for the committee to discuss in the next few weeks. I thank the cabinet secretary for her offer.

10:30  

I want to move on to one of the other areas in the cabinet secretary’s very wide portfolio—homelessness. We are seeing levels of homelessness and the use of temporary accommodation going up. How important is temporary accommodation as a short-term answer, and is the Government working to provide more temporary accommodation, particularly in hotspots such as Lothian and Glasgow?

It is an area of great concern. The levels of homelessness and the number of families in temporary accommodation are a particular concern. That is why the Government established a temporary accommodation task and finish group, which set out some actions for the Government to take. We have responded to that—I gave some examples in relation to the £60 million that was made available this year to support the national acquisition plan and to ensure that we work with social landlords to deliver a new programme of stock management. We see that working very successfully in particular local authorities, although it is not being used to the same extent right across the 32 council areas. Every council will have its own stock management process and policies, but, where that policy has made a clear impact, it serves as an example of local government and national Government working together to share good practice.

We will continue with the affordable housing supply programme, and we are working with particular local authorities that have hotspots—as Mr Balfour mentioned. Edinburgh is a key example. We are working with the local authority and asking about the specific support solutions that it would wish to see in place. Clearly, we have to work in the financial context that we are all in, but we are working at the national level and with particular local authorities where either there is good practice or there are specific housing needs. The Minister for Housing is meeting housing conveners and many others from local authorities to take that work forward with each local authority that requires it.

I am grateful for that answer, cabinet secretary. Perhaps it would be helpful to get updates as we go along.

Has there been any analysis of the change in the rental market as a result of the emergency legislation that was introduced last year? Is the same amount of social temporary accommodation still available, particularly in Edinburgh and Glasgow, or are landlords moving away and selling their property? Has any work been done to analyse that?

I am not aware of any concerns about levels of temporary accommodation and the impact that Mr Balfour suggests our work on rent caps will have. I am happy to liaise with Mr Harvie and Mr McLennan on that issue to see whether any further updates are required.

It is very important that we take action to support people in the private rented sector. Higher rents affect people not just in Scotland but throughout the UK, and it is important that we take the issue very seriously. We also have to take very seriously any impact that rents have on the size of the private rented sector and on landlords. That is why the Minister for Housing regularly meets private landlord representative bodies and others to ensure that he clearly hears any concerns or suggestions that they might have. I hope that we all have a shared interest and responsibility in providing support to those in the private rented sector in the context of exceptionally high rent level increases.

Industrial injuries disablement benefit has been pretty much left unreformed by the major Westminster parties, even though it came into effect in 1948. As usual, it is left to the Scottish Parliament to lead on positive reforms. When are you likely to publish a consultation on the new employment injury assistance scheme?

I am giving active consideration to that, but the member is quite right to point to the challenges. The current system is literally based on paper sitting in a large warehouse—even if we wanted to lift and shift Scottish cases from that paper-based system, it is not set up to enable us to do that. The system is untouched and quite archaic in the way in which it is currently administered, which is a real challenge.

The committee will be well aware of the costs of the devolution programme for social security and would be right to question me on them. Inevitably, there would be more cost involved in providing a benefit up here when we are not able in any way to lift and shift the information from a digital programme down south. Devolving the benefit presents us with great challenges, and we therefore need to be cognisant of the cost of that and what that would mean. That is why I am looking carefully at how it could be done. We need to look at the cost not just of the benefit but of the implementation. That can be approached in several ways, but, as I said, it would not be without cost.

I am giving consideration to the matter, but, at this point, I am unable to provide the committee with a date when any consultation would go live.

The previous social security minister gave a commitment to groups with knowledge and experience that they would be involved in designing the new benefit. I had a meeting on that with the minister and Clydebank Asbestos Group in my constituency. Can you give a commitment that that will be acted on?

We will be very happy to carry on that work once the consultation goes live. The Government has a good track record of working with those who are most directly impacted by benefits to help to shape the focus of any new benefit. That would include people who currently receive the benefit as well as those who perceive that there are barriers to them receiving such a benefit. I am happy to reaffirm my colleague’s commitment.

That concludes our questions for the cabinet secretary. I thank the cabinet secretary and her officials for attending today’s meeting.

Next week, we will take evidence on the Carer’s Assistance (Carers Support Payment) (Scotland) Regulations 2023 and on the 2024-25 budget.

We will move into private to consider the remaining items on the agenda.

10:38 Meeting continued in private until 11:07.