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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 24 May 2025
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Displaying 3259 contributions

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Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 23 January 2024

Kenneth Gibson

I would be quite happy if you could tell us that.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 23 January 2024

Kenneth Gibson

I am sure that you are right, but that is how it looks.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 23 January 2024

Kenneth Gibson

I am one of those people who likes precise figures. Over the years, we have had plenty of financial memorandums that have provided precise figures.

I will ask just one more question, because I know that colleagues are keen to come in; it is about additional Scottish Government staff costs. Our briefing paper states:

“The final section of the new FM notes that certain Scottish Government staff costs are already being incurred in the region of £10 million per annum and would continue to be incurred even if the NCS proposals did not go ahead.”

What are those staff currently engaged in, and what will their role be if the proposals do not go ahead? There does not seem to be any detail on the number of staff involved or on their salaries or grades; we simply have a statement that those costs are in the region of £10 million. It is not very transparent.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 23 January 2024

Kenneth Gibson

I do not have the information in front of me, but my understanding was that you said that you would not be able to report even every six months, as it would contradict the Scottish Government’s annual financial assessments. It would have to be once a year. However, you are now saying that it could be once a quarter.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 23 January 2024

Kenneth Gibson

I have a couple of points to finish. I want to follow up on what John Mason said on the IT front. The new financial memorandum says that from

“2023-24 through to 2025-26 costs are significantly lower than previously estimated”.

It also says:

“The internal staff skillset will be utilised in favour of externally contracted services.”

I am not really sure what that means. I would have thought that it would say “rather than” instead of “in favour of”—there seems to be a contradiction there.

The memorandum goes on to say:

“It is expected a portion of the staff costs will be in the data and digital space, some of which will be shorter term contractors with specific skills for set periods of time.”

Whenever I see the word “contractors”, I always see pound signs ratcheting up pretty quickly, so I am wondering where the parameters are for that.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 23 January 2024

Kenneth Gibson

Thank you—we will certainly return to that on Thursday. I thank Donna Bell, Lee Flannigan and Richard McCallum for their contributions.

The committee will continue to take evidence on the updated financial memorandum at our next meeting, which will be on Thursday 25 January, when we will hear from the Minister for Social Care, Mental Wellbeing and Sport. That concludes the public part of today’s meeting—we will now move into private session to discuss our work programme.

11:47 Meeting continued in private until 11:52.  

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 23 January 2024

Kenneth Gibson

We are comparing apples with oranges with regard to the rest of the Scottish budget. It seems to be really odd that one particular aspect of the Scottish budget should be different from the rest. We all agree that the GDP deflator is not necessarily a realistic assessment, and that it has not been for the past couple of years, although the Scottish Fiscal Commission hopes that we might be more aligned with it in the next two or three years. However, the reality is that that is what we are using.

10:15  

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 23 January 2024

Kenneth Gibson

Yes, that would be helpful for us.

In our report on the original financial memorandum, we highlighted that

“The Fraser of Allander Institute noted particular uncertainties in relation to the costings provided for rights to breaks from caring, due to a lack of data at local authority level and no specific allocation for carer respite in the local government settlement.”

That is an issue of concern, because, proportionally, in the new financial memorandum, annual costs will increase and are estimated at between £155 million and £225 million. Given that caveat that was made by the Fraser of Allander Institute, can you explain how you came to those figures?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 23 January 2024

Kenneth Gibson

Good morning, and welcome to the fourth meeting of the Finance and Public Administration Committee in 2024.

The only item on our public agenda today is an evidence session with Scottish Government officials to discuss the Government’s response to the committee’s report on the original financial memorandum for the National Care Service (Scotland) Bill and the information that is presented in the updated financial memorandum, which was provided to the committee on 11 December last year.

We are joined today, from the Scottish Government, by Donna Bell, who is the director of social care and national care service development; Lee Flannigan, who is the national care service senior finance manager; and Richard McCallum, who is the director of health and social care finance, digital and governance. I welcome you all to the committee; I understand that Ms Bell will make a brief opening statement.

Ross Greer, one of our members, is struggling to get here in time due to transport difficulties, but hopes to join us before too long.

Over to you, Donna.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 23 January 2024

Kenneth Gibson

That is the point that I am making.