Meeting of the Parliament

Meeting date: Tuesday, February 28, 2023

Official Report 1040KB pdf

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Business Motion

The next item of business is consideration of business motion S6M-08062, in the name of George Adam, on behalf of the Parliamentary Bureau, on changes to this week’s business.

Motion moved,

That the Parliament agrees to the following revisions to the programme of business for—

(a) Wednesday 1 March 2023—

after

followed by Scottish Government Debate: Local Government Finance (Scotland) Order 2023

insert

followed by Ministerial Statement: Update on Scotland’s Deposit Return Scheme

after

followed by Scottish Government Debate: Dementia Strategy

insert

followed by Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body Debate: Appointment of Members of the Standards Commission for Scotland

delete

5.00 pm Decision Time

and insert

5.30 pm Decision Time

(b) Thursday 2 March 2023—

delete

2.30 pm Parliamentary Bureau Motions

2.30 pm Portfolio Questions: Education and Skills

and insert

2.00 pm Parliamentary Bureau Motions

2.00 pm Portfolio Questions:
Education and Skills

followed by Ministerial Statement: Policing in Scotland – 10 Years on from Reform—[George Adam]

I call Stephen Kerr to speak to and move amendment S6M-08062.1.

17:06  

I am trying everything that I can, because I would have thought that members from all parties would want the issue of the teachers strike to be properly aired in our nation’s Parliament. What is this Parliament for if it is not to address the major issues of the day?

The people of Scotland are watching and listening. Today, right across Scotland, pupils are not at school, and parents and carers are doing their best to cope with yet another day of disruption. Have our young people not had enough disruption to their education over the past three years? Yet, despite that, this Scottish National Party Government will not agree to send a minister to the chamber to make a statement and answer questions. Is it so unreasonable to expect the Cabinet Secretary for Education and Skills, or the Deputy First Minister—he is the one who is really running this shambolic operation—to come to the chamber to make a statement and answer questions?

Will the member give way?

Alex Cole-Hamilton (Edinburgh Western) (LD) rose—

The Government does not want to send the hapless Shirley-Anne Somerville anywhere near this chamber to make a statement or answer questions.

The member makes a lot of noise. Has he got a proposal to solve the problem?

John Mason asks whether I have a proposal. Yes, I do—it is to amend the business motion so that we can have a statement and questions tomorrow.

John Mason asked whether Stephen Kerr had a proposal to offer. Members of Stephen Kerr’s party joined me in meeting representatives of the Educational Institute of Scotland at the Scottish Poetry Library this afternoon. We were told that all the talks that Shirley-Anne Somerville and John Swinney have conducted contain absolutely nothing new. All that they say is, “There is no more money. What would you like us to cut?”

I agree with Ash Regan. She said that Shirley-Anne Somerville has not been—is not now—listening to the concerns of teachers and parents.

Christine Grahame (Midlothian South, Tweedale and Lauderdale) (SNP) rose—

Shirley-Anne Somerville has lectured me—she has lectured all of us—about how she was not going to negotiate with teachers’ representatives, because that is not how the negotiations are done, but what did we hear on BBC Radio Scotland this morning?

Will the member give way?

Michael Marra (North East Scotland) rose—

The same Shirley-Anne Somerville telling listeners that she and John Swinney were finally going to negotiate with the EIS.

I give way to Michael Marra.

Does the member share Labour’s concerns about the—

Yes, he does.

I am glad that he will.

Does the member share Labour’s concerns regarding the number of young people who are losing extra days of education because they are schooled in areas where ministers of this Government are seeing targeted strike action? Does he think that the minister should be in front of this Parliament telling us what accommodation can be made to ensure that those young people receive the grades and support that they require?

I absolutely agree with Michael Marra. [Interruption.] I absolutely agree. Suddenly, it is the done thing for the Cabinet Secretary for Education and Skills to go to the negotiating table. We have been asking her to do that for months.

Given that Nicola Sturgeon praised her favourite, Humza Yousaf, for preventing strikes in the national health service because he was on top of his job—as if anyone believes that—I actually feel sorry for Shirley-Anne Somerville, because her boss clearly thinks that she is not up to her job. That is probably why John Swinney has been at the table with the EIS.

Will the member take an intervention?

I do not think that I have time.

Members: Ah!

Perhaps members would like to listen to a parent who wrote to me. They said:

“I am writing to express my extreme disappointment and frustration at the ongoing strike action by teachers. As a parent to S5 and S6 children sitting final year exams I am deeply concerned about the impact this is having on my children’s education and their future prospects ... I am particularly dismayed at the apparent lack of progress in resolving the dispute over teachers’ pay. It is unacceptable that our children’s education should be disrupted in this way, and I urge you all to do everything in your power to bring this situation to a swift and satisfactory conclusion ... I am also concerned about the Scottish Government’s handling of this issue. It is clear that additional resources are needed to support our children through this turbulent period, and I would like to know what steps the government is taking to address this”.

I could go on, but I respect the fact—

Don’t!

I could go on, because a lot of other parents have written to me to express their concern about the disruption to their children’s education. That might not mean very much to SNP members, but it means a great deal to Scotland’s parents and carers.

There is lots that could be said on this subject. Many questions need to be asked. What is the SNP Government doing to bring the dispute to an end, other than endlessly repeating—as the cabinet secretary did on the radio this morning—how terribly disappointing it all is? What is the contingency plan to support pupils who face important exams? What plans are in place to ensure that the exam timetable is not disrupted? What is the contingency plan to ensure that exam papers are marked? That is not scaremongering; it is factually what we are facing.

You must conclude, Mr Kerr.

I will conclude. How can we credibly look the parents, young people and teachers of Scotland in the face when their Parliament is not even prepared to hold the SNP cabinet secretary to account for this unfolding mess?

I move amendment S6M-08062.1, to insert, after “followed by Ministerial Statement: Update on Scotland’s Deposit Return Scheme”:

“followed by Ministerial Statement: Teacher Strikes”.

I call George Adam to respond on behalf of the Parliamentary Bureau.

17:12  

Whoever thought that I would be the calm, cooling effect in any debate? However, here we are.

I remind members that we are supposed to be talking about bureau meetings and future business, but Mr Kerr’s outburst was nothing to do with the subject matter or the current negotiations. Mr Kerr asked what would solve the current issues with the union. The answer is cool heads; beating your chest and shouting and bawling in the chamber will not do it.

I encourage Mr Kerr to talk to his business manager. He knows how the system works. As you know, Presiding Officer, the Parliamentary Bureau is set up so that we can have discussions regarding parliamentary business and do not need to automatically drag those discussions to decision time at 5 o’clock in the evening. The Parliamentary Bureau is the ideal forum for those discussions. [Interruption.]

With regard to the actual issue, I think that Mr Kerr kind of said what he said last week—

Excuse me, minister. Conversations are going on across the aisles. I would be really grateful if members could get out of that habit, because I am seeing it on too many occasions. Let us please hear the minister.

Thank you, Presiding Officer.

I think that what Mr Kerr finally said was very similar to what he said last week, so I refer him to the answer that I gave last week. I said that discussions are on-going and that negotiations remain at a sensitive and critical stage, so a statement would not be appropriate at this time. The Deputy First Minister and the cabinet secretary—who both have cool heads—are speaking with the unions at this very moment.

The question is, that amendment S6M-08062.1, in the name of Stephen Kerr, which seeks to amend motion S6M-08062, in the name of George Adam, on behalf of the Parliamentary Bureau, on changes to this week’s business, be agreed to. Are we agreed?

Members: No.

There will be a division.

There will be a short suspension to allow members to access the digital voting system.

17:14 Meeting suspended.  

17:18 On resuming—  

The question is, that amendment S6M-08062.1, in the name of Stephen Kerr, which seeks to amend motion S6M-08062, in the name of George Adam, on behalf of the Parliamentary Bureau, on changes to this week’s business, be agreed to. Members should cast their votes now.

The vote is closed.

On a point of order, Presiding Officer. Despite many attempts, I was unable to vote yes on that motion. That would have been my vote, if the app had registered it.

Thank you, Mr Whitfield. We will ensure that that is recorded.

On a point of order, Presiding Officer. I could not connect. I would have voted no.

Thank you, Mr Beattie. We will ensure that that is recorded.

For

Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Balfour, Jeremy (Lothian) (Con)
Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab)
Briggs, Miles (Lothian) (Con)
Burnett, Alexander (Aberdeenshire West) (Con)
Cameron, Donald (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
Choudhury, Foysol (Lothian) (Lab)
Clark, Katy (West Scotland) (Lab)
Cole-Hamilton, Alex (Edinburgh Western) (LD)
Dowey, Sharon (South Scotland) (Con)
Duncan-Glancy, Pam (Glasgow) (Lab)
Findlay, Russell (West Scotland) (Con)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gallacher, Meghan (Central Scotland) (Con)
Golden, Maurice (North East Scotland) (Con)
Gosal, Pam (West Scotland) (Con)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Greene, Jamie (West Scotland) (Con)
Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Gulhane, Sandesh (Glasgow) (Con)
Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Hoy, Craig (South Scotland) (Con)
Johnson, Daniel (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab)
Halcro Johnston, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Kerr, Liam (North East Scotland) (Con)
Kerr, Stephen (Central Scotland) (Con)
Lennon, Monica (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Leonard, Richard (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Lumsden, Douglas (North East Scotland) (Con)
Marra, Michael (North East Scotland) (Lab)
McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD)
McCall, Roz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow) (Lab)
Mochan, Carol (South Scotland) (Lab)
Mountain, Edward (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Mundell, Oliver (Dumfriesshire) (Con)
O’Kane, Paul (West Scotland) (Lab)
Rennie, Willie (North East Fife) (LD)
Ross, Douglas (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Rowley, Alex (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Sarwar, Anas (Glasgow) (Lab)
Simpson, Graham (Central Scotland) (Con)
Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Smyth, Colin (South Scotland) (Lab)
Sweeney, Paul (Glasgow) (Lab)
Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Webber, Sue (Lothian) (Con)
Wells, Annie (Glasgow) (Con)
White, Tess (North East Scotland) (Con)
Whitfield, Martin (South Scotland) (Lab)
Whittle, Brian (South Scotland) (Con)
Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD)

Against

Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP)
Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Adamson, Clare (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP)
Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Arthur, Tom (Renfrewshire South) (SNP)
Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP)
Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP)
Brown, Siobhian (Ayr) (SNP)
Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Callaghan, Stephanie (Uddingston and Bellshill) (SNP)
Chapman, Maggie (North East Scotland) (Green)
Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP)
Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP)
Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP)
Don, Natalie (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP)
Doris, Bob (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (SNP)
Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP)
Dunbar, Jackie (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP)
Ewing, Annabelle (Cowdenbeath) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP)
Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP)
Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP)
Gilruth, Jenny (Mid Fife and Glenrothes) (SNP)
Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP)
Gray, Neil (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP)
Greer, Ross (West Scotland) (Green)
Harper, Emma (South Scotland) (SNP)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Haughey, Clare (Rutherglen) (SNP)
Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP)
Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP)
MacGregor, Fulton (Coatbridge and Chryston) (SNP)
Mackay, Gillian (Central Scotland) (Green)
Mackay, Rona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP)
Macpherson, Ben (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (SNP)
Maguire, Ruth (Cunninghame South) (SNP)
Martin, Gillian (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP)
Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP)
McAllan, Màiri (Clydesdale) (SNP)
McKee, Ivan (Glasgow Provan) (SNP)
McKelvie, Christina (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) (SNP)
McLennan, Paul (East Lothian) (SNP)
McMillan, Stuart (Greenock and Inverclyde) (SNP)
McNair, Marie (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP)
Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Nicoll, Audrey (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP)
Regan, Ash (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP)
Robertson, Angus (Edinburgh Central) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP)
Roddick, Emma (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Ruskell, Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green)
Slater, Lorna (Lothian) (Green)
Stevenson, Collette (East Kilbride) (SNP)
Stewart, Kaukab (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP)
Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP)
Thomson, Michelle (Falkirk East) (SNP)
Todd, Maree (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP)
Tweed, Evelyn (Stirling) (SNP)
Whitham, Elena (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP)
Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow Pollok) (SNP)

The result of the division on amendment S6M-08062.1, in the name of Stephen Kerr, is: For 55, Against 65, Abstentions 0.

Amendment disagreed to.

The next question is, that motion S6M-08062, in the name of George Adam, on behalf of the Parliamentary Bureau, on changes to this week’s business, be agreed to.

Motion agreed to,

That the Parliament agrees to the following revisions to the programme of business for—

(a) Wednesday 1 March 2023—

after

followed by Scottish Government Debate: Local Government Finance (Scotland) Order 2023

insert

followed by Ministerial Statement: Update on Scotland’s Deposit Return Scheme

after

followed by Scottish Government Debate: Dementia Strategy

insert

followed by Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body Debate: Appointment of Members of the Standards Commission for Scotland

delete

5.00 pm Decision Time

and insert

5.30 pm Decision Time

(b) Thursday 2 March 2023—

delete

2.30 pm Parliamentary Bureau Motions

2.30 pm Portfolio Questions: Education and Skills

and insert

2.00 pm Parliamentary Bureau Motions

2.00 pm Portfolio Questions:
Education and Skills

followed by Ministerial Statement: Policing in Scotland – 10 Years on from Reform