School Bus Safety (PE1098 and PE1223)
The first current petitions—PE1098 and PE1223—relate to school bus safety. Members have a briefing note by the clerk, which is paper 1.
The complexities lie in the seat belt issue, rather than the matters in PE1223, and relate to the devolved powers of the National Assembly for Wales, the United Kingdom Parliament’s reserved powers and our devolved powers, which do not include the ability to insist on seat belts.
Good morning, minister. You mentioned discussions with the previous committee on 8 March and said that progress has been made—you have written to the DFT and await a reply. Can you give any indication of the timescale for that reply? What might be the complexities of the new devolution settlement? Can we look to a positive outcome?
To answer your last question, we see a positive outcome—both sides are willing to reach a positive resolution. I have described the complexities, which involve finding exactly which reserved power to devolve or, in the absence of such a power, finding a mechanism to give us the devolved authority to make the change. Those matters are in train.
I apologise for being late—I was confused about the meeting’s start time.
The original impetus was the question of which powers could be included in the Scotland Bill, on which I made a suggestion, but it seems that the issue would be dealt with better on its own, rather than as part of the bill. We will keep an open mind on that, which will depend on how the situation progresses. You will be aware of the myriad negotiations that are taking place on different powers in the bill. I do not want to add to that complexity and hold up the bill. If we can take the issue forward in a transport bill in this Parliament, we will do that.
I appreciate the complexities of the issues raised in the petition. However, as you will acknowledge, it has been live for a considerable time and Mr Beaty, who is in the public gallery, has faithfully attended every meeting at which it has been discussed and is frustrated at the length of time it is taking to get a solution to the problem. Indeed, the previous committee felt the same frustration. The Government clearly hopes for a fairly speedy resolution to the issue, but I ask it to put as much pressure as possible on the Westminster Government or whoever needs to have pressure put on them to get an early resolution. In the meantime, there have been a number of other accidents and there is certainly potential for more fatal accidents involving children on school buses.
First, I pass on my condolences to Ron Beaty, whose wife died in April, and acknowledge his efforts over the years in pursuing this issue. Ever since I became Minister for Schools and Skills and, indeed, since I became responsible for transport, I have pushed this issue as hard as I have been able to because I believe that it is the right thing to do. The important point is that there is now political unity between the Parliaments and we need to keep up the pressure to ensure that the matter goes through as quickly as possible at official level.
In your letter to the convener, you say that
No. We can conclude any further negotiations while we are waiting for resolution at an official level. I have already had a couple of brief discussions with Alasdair Allan on this matter and my view is that, although it would be possible to take things through on an education basis, it would be best to get the devolved powers and then proceed on that basis. In fact, by doing it that way, we will also respect the concordat.
Have you discussed with individual local authorities the possibility of ensuring in tender documentation that any contracts issued now, before the law is in place, allow for seat belts to be fitted? I think that as most local authorities will co-operate in that regard such an approach might be a sensible way forward in the short term, while we are awaiting this legislative change.
That is indeed the position. Local authorities are well aware that they have that ability—and if they were not aware, we have made them so. Although you could take things further and try to change legislation to insist on the measure, we are not doing so because of the concordat. You are right to say that many authorities already take that approach, but it might be worth pointing out that, no matter whether they do so in the meantime, when we reach the point of legislating on the issue we will follow the Welsh approach and set out a timescale for implementation instead of simply stipulating that it all happen in one go. After all, that would have a fairly substantial knock-on effect on the bus industry. We will give people warning and have further dialogue with local authorities when we take it all forward. As you have rightly pointed out, however, local authorities can insist on this just now.
Many local authorities operate their own fleets of buses, particularly smaller ones, in rural areas. Have you tried to get those authorities to ensure that their fleets are equipped with the right seat belts to ensure that they in turn are equipped to meet any future change?
We have only done so through discussion and advice, because we are not able to insist on such measures. Councils can do these things for themselves. It is also worth bearing it in mind that the majority of people travel to school on public transport buses, which are not specifically dedicated for such a purpose and cannot be touched by this particular legislation. Nevertheless, local authorities are aware of the issue—we have said as much to them in the past—and are still able to insist on such measures not only in their own stock but in their tenders.
Kevin Stewart has already asked most of the questions that I had, but I wonder whether the minister is able to indicate the last time local authorities were surveyed on the use of contracted buses and the number of such vehicles that are and are not fitted with seat belts.
I will ask officials whether they have details on that. It is fair to point out that it is not really down to us to survey local authorities’ contract details in that respect. I think that there is general awareness on the issue. I have seen double-decker buses being used in my area, so I know that that still happens.
At the Public Petitions Committee meeting in Fraserburgh I think that Stewart Stevenson gave an indication of the number of local authorities that contract only for seat-belted school buses. I got figures from education colleagues two years ago, which suggested that four local authorities already contracted only for buses with seat belts and another 11 authorities had the matter in mind when contracts were being renewed, so almost half our local authorities had put in place measures in that regard.
In the first instance it is for local authorities to collect the information, but I will be happy to see what information we hold centrally and provide it to the committee.
That would be helpful, minister.
We have not yet talked about safety signage and lights on school buses that are used only when children are on the bus. I am a little confused about where we are at with the on-going negotiations, but will discussions cover the issue, which is extremely important and is the basis of Mr Beaty’s petition?
We have discussed the matter with the DFT, which said that it is reviewing the issue. It is for the DFT to take the matter forward. The DFT also said that it wants to see the outcome of the European Union safe way to school initiative, which will not conclude until September next year. That substantial project, which involves about €350 million across the European Union, is all to do with safety signage, so I think that the DFT is keen to wait to see what happens. If it did not wait, but prescribed certain signage requirements and the requirements then changed as a result of the safe way to school initiative, that would add to the cost. The UK Government’s current position is, therefore, that it wants to await the outcome of the initiative, but the UK Government has also said that it is reviewing the issue.
If members have no more questions, I thank the minister and his officials for coming along today and for offering to provide us with further information. The committee is very interested in the issue and we would appreciate being kept involved in and up to date on what is happening. I suspend the meeting to allow the minister and his officials to leave.
I confirm that the minister has agreed to keep the committee updated on developments. Does the committee agree to keep the petitions open and to await updates from the minister?
In view of what the minister said about safety signage, we should perhaps keep the matter open in the backs of our minds until we hear about the European decision, which will be made more than a year from now—what I am trying to say is that I do not think that we should let the matter go.
Thank you.
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