Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee

Meeting date: Tuesday, May 9, 2023

Official Report 577KB pdf

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Subordinate Legislation

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Climate Change (Scotland) Act 2009 (Interim Target) Amendment Regulations 2023 [Draft]

Under our second agenda item, we will consider a draft Scottish statutory instrument: the Climate Change (Scotland) Act 2009 (Interim Target) Amendment Regulations 2023. I am pleased to welcome Màiri McAllan, the Cabinet Secretary for Net Zero and Just Transition, and, from the Scottish Government, Norman Munro, a solicitor, and Philip Raines, deputy director for domestic climate change. Thank you for joining us.

The instrument was laid under the affirmative procedure, which means that the Parliament must approve it before it comes into force. Following the evidence session, the committee will be invited, under the next agenda item, to consider a motion to approve the instrument. I remind everyone that officials can speak under this item, but not in the debate that follows.

I believe that the cabinet secretary wants to make a brief opening statement.

Good morning. I thank the committee for having me along to talk about the amendment regulations.

The instrument was drafted following advice from the Climate Change Committee—our statutory advisers—to modify our emissions targets through the 2020s. The modifications represent a technical adjustment to ensure that the targets in the 2020s remain consistent with the latest methodology for carbon accounting. The advice from the Climate Change Committee was received in December 2022, and it came after a request from the Scottish ministers to review our emissions reduction targets. That request was in line with section 2C of the 2009 act, which requires us to seek advice, at least every five years, from the Climate Change Committee to ensure that our targets are set at the right levels.

The CCC’s advice highlighted the need to ensure that our targets for the 2020s remain aligned with the significant revisions to international carbon accounting because of the recognition of the role of peatland restoration in reducing emissions. Currently, our targets through the 2020s are based on a legislative target of a 56 per cent reduction. That is based on advice that we received in 2017, and that advice is now outdated and undervalues the role of peatland restoration.

The methodological updates impact all four United Kingdom countries, but they have more of an impact in Scotland for two reasons. First, we have annual targets, whereas our colleagues in England and Wales have targets over longer periods. The second reason relates to how central peatland restoration is to our emissions reduction targets.

Ultimately, the CCC recommended that our annual targets from 2021 to 2029, which are set by a straight line from 2020, should be adjusted to align with the new international carbon accounting. As I said, the instrument responds directly to that recommendation.

I will make a final point in reinforcing what the Climate Change Committee has said. This is not a lowering of ambition; the 2030 target remains unchanged. This is just about reflecting better carbon accounting and developments in our understanding of peatland restoration. Our 2045 target remains unchanged, too.

Thank you very much, cabinet secretary. We move to questions from the committee.

I suppose that the regulations have come about because of our greater understanding of what is happening in the natural world and how the greenhouse gas inventory is changing over time. Do you anticipate any other changes being made in later years? I know that our understanding of blue carbon, for example, is increasing, although that is currently outside of the inventory; we do not really account for it. Could this be a game changer in increasing our understanding of the science? Might there be an impact further down the line? Is there any sense of that in the international debate within the science community?

In relation to all aspects of our journey to net zero, I expect there to be changes and developments in the way in which we account for emissions, particularly in the natural world. You are absolutely right to highlight blue carbon. It is often said to me that our understanding of blue carbon is now at the stage that our understanding of peatland emissions was at five years ago. I expect advances in that regard, as well as advances in technology, so everything that we do has to be iterative.

I will round off my answer by saying that we are statutorily bound to seek the Climate Change Committee’s advice on such changes at least every five years. We will continue to follow the legislation in that regard, so I expect that there will be adjustments to be made as we move through our annual targets.

The flip side is that, if blue carbon was brought into the inventory, that might affect the targets but it might also provide solutions, such as blue carbon marine protected areas and seagrass or kelp restoration. As well as having to account for an entirely new part of our biosphere in our thinking on the inventory, that might open up opportunities for progress.

Absolutely. I want the science on blue carbon to develop. That is, in part, why we are funding research in our academic institutions and supporting projects such as Project Seagrass. That means that we will develop what I think we all agree will be a very important part of our carbon accounting and our journey to net zero, as the science is a little behind where it is in relation to the terrestrial space. I am very much behind that development, which will be a useful addition once we get to a settled position on blue carbon.

Thanks very much.

Good morning. As the cabinet secretary said, this is all about targets; it is not about lowering the ambition. However, the CCC stated:

“Key milestones are ambitious, but a clear delivery plan on how they will be achieved is still missing and there is no quantification of how policies combine to give the emissions reduction required to meet Scotland’s targets.”

What work has been done to address those concerns of the Climate Change Committee and to ensure that, even though previous targets have been missed, the new ones might be achieved?

Obviously, I take the Climate Change Committee’s advice very seriously. Its remarks in recent months and years have been constructively critical about the pathway. My view is that, overall, we are making good progress—we are more than halfway to net zero—but I am sure that the next phase of emissions reduction, particularly out to 2030, will include some of the most challenging parts of the journey that we have to go on.

What are we doing to respond to that? We will officially respond to the Climate Change Committee’s most recent advice in due course. Later this year, we will also lay a draft of the next full statutory climate change plan, which will look across Scotland’s economy and society and will demonstrate how emissions reductions will be achieved in sectors right across our economy. The plan will set the emissions pathway for each sector, and it will also include details of the costs and benefits of the policies that it contains. A draft of that full statutory plan will be laid in November.

The current climate change plan commits to a 20 per cent reduction in car kilometres by 2030, but the Climate Change Committee says:

“the current plans lack a full strategy with sufficient levers to deter car use.”

Given that we have known that for a while—the CCC has said that for a while—what measures has the Government been looking at to meet that specific target and reduce transport-related emissions?

A lot of the work is still under development but, for the purposes of today, I point to the fact that we will respond precisely to that point in the Climate Change Committee’s advice very soon. That will be built into our climate change plan, a draft of which will be laid in November. Instead of, today, going into some of the detail of what my officials and I are developing, I would rather wait until we have published our response. At that point, I will be more than happy to discuss that with the committee.

I have a final question—

I am being quite generous. The instrument is about amending the targets, but I know that you are interested in how the targets will be achieved. I will allow you to ask one more question and then, in fairness, I will allow other members to come in.

When will the response be published, cabinet secretary?

It will be published in due course.

Will it be this year?

Absolutely. It will be published in advance of the draft climate change plan, which will be laid in November.

Thank you.

I will bring in the deputy convener.

A strength of our targets—this is also a challenge—is the fact that they were set by the Government following a cross-party commitment. The Government was pushed to set tougher targets and to set annual targets. As you translate the revised targets into the delivery plan for the climate change plan that will be laid, as you said, at the end of November, how will you keep cross-party support, which was important in setting the ambitious targets in the first place? You said that the 2030 and 2045 targets are being kept, even if the trajectory is changing somewhat.

I reiterate that, even though I am here today to talk about the annual changes, my view on the challenge has not changed whatsoever, and neither has the view of my colleagues. We are still very much planning out to 2030 and 2045.

You are absolutely right that the commitments—which are very stretching, particularly the target of a 75 per cent reduction in emissions by 2030—were set on a cross-party basis in the Parliament. I am keen to foster cross-party working as we agree our response. One way in which we are doing that is through a cross-party and cross-civic society group that is looking at the development of the climate change plan. The group was formerly chaired by Michael Matheson, and I will now take over that role. The group brings together stakeholders and MSPs from across the chamber to discuss key responses to climate change. I will continue those discussions right up to the point at which we publish the draft plan, which the Parliament will then consider and scrutinise.

Thank you.

As there are no more questions, we move on to agenda item 3, which is formal consideration of the motion calling for the committee to recommend approval of the regulations. I invite the cabinet secretary to speak to and move the motion.

I commend the SSI to the committee as it is a necessary step in maintaining the credibility of Scotland’s emissions accounting framework.

I move,

That the Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee recommends that the Climate Change (Scotland) Act 2009 (Interim Target) Amendment Regulations 2023 [draft] be approved.

I see that committee members do not wish to make any further contributions.

Cabinet secretary, you are technically allowed to sum up. I am not sure that there is much more to say, but I am happy for you to do so if you want to.

I will waive that right, convener. I have said all that I wanted to say.

Thank you. The question is, that motion S6M-08482, in the name of Màiri McAllan, be agreed to.

Motion agreed to,

That the Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee recommends that the Climate Change (Scotland) Act 2009 (Interim Target) Amendment Regulations 2023 [draft] be approved.

The committee will report on the outcome of its consideration of the instrument in due course. I invite the committee to delegate authority to me as convener to finalise the report for publication. Are members happy to do that?

Members indicated agreement.

I thank the cabinet secretary and her officials for attending. I suspend the meeting so that we can prepare for the next item.

09:44 Meeting suspended.  

09:47 On resuming—