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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 15 September 2025
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Displaying 841 contributions

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Finance and Public Administration Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 7 May 2024

Jamie Halcro Johnston

I appreciate that they were not going be revised down, but Mr Thomson said that the £5 million figure was “a surprise”. Obviously, that was when they were presented as evidence to the committee. That was not in November or September, when there were discussions. It seems that there was no real understanding that the figures were going to be so substantially increased.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 7 May 2024

Jamie Halcro Johnston

I appreciate that, but you have told us that you did not just sit back and accept the figures. You wanted your officials to interrogate the figures—

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 7 May 2024

Jamie Halcro Johnston

I will go back to some of the previous questions. The bill was introduced on 6 June 2023, and at the September Scottish police consultative forum, concerns were raised that the costs for Police Scotland would increase. Were you advised of those concerns or those potential increased costs at that time?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Scotland’s Commissioner Landscape

Meeting date: 7 May 2024

Jamie Halcro Johnston

I am pleased that Allan Faulds talked about outcomes, because I was going to ask about those and about how we measure them. Adam Stachura, you talked a lot about effectiveness, which is completely understandable, but one of the concerns that the committee has seen in the evidence that we have received is that it is hard to identify how effective commissioners are and whether going down the commissioner route is the best way of solving issues. I would be happy to hear people’s thoughts on how we measure the effectiveness of commissioners and the outcomes.

I also want to follow up on the point that Allan Faulds made about the route. Are commissioners being used in some cases as a deflection by Parliament and Government, whereby responsibility for an issue that we all identify as an issue is deflected away from Government or Parliament to a body that is not cheap but which is perhaps cheaper than actually dealing with the problem. That might not be the case in all areas but, given that different commissioners have different responsibilities and we have some that advocate and some that have regulatory powers, is there any concern that they could be used almost as a deflection?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 7 May 2024

Jamie Halcro Johnston

You are suggesting that £4 million is an inconsiderable—

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 7 May 2024

Jamie Halcro Johnston

So, officials were aware of the precise figures in November.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 7 May 2024

Jamie Halcro Johnston

So why was it a surprise when the revised costs came out? Surely your officials should have had an idea that the costs were going to increase substantially.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 7 May 2024

Jamie Halcro Johnston

You did not expect them to be revised, but did you ask for any—

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 7 May 2024

Jamie Halcro Johnston

I understand that it is zero point whatever of the budget, but given the pressure that Police Scotland is under, that will still have an impact. Do you have any estimates—

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 7 May 2024

Jamie Halcro Johnston

Okay. In March, I said to Mr Bunch:

“in September 2023, Police Scotland raised concerns ... Did it give you a figure at that point, or did you go back to Police Scotland and ask it to revise the costs and provide you with updated parameters, in effect?”

Mr Bunch replied:

“No. We did not know the figure until it was published as evidence to the committee.”—[Official Report, Finance and Public Administration Committee, 26 March 2024; c 21.]

It appears that you were not aware of any increase for a long time. You said that you asked your officials to interrogate the figures. When did you ask them to do that?