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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 9 January 2026
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Displaying 1036 contributions

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Constitution, Europe, External Affairs and Culture Committee [Draft]

Legal Mechanism for any Independence Referendum

Meeting date: 18 December 2025

Jamie Halcro Johnston

This is a question to be asked of the Scottish Government. The party in the Scottish Government has said not that it will push for another referendum but that there will be another referendum. There has to be some legality to that in order to deliver it; indeed, as Mr Robertson has quite rightly pointed out, it has to be a legal and acceptable referendum.

From what you are saying, Mr Robertson, you seem to be suggesting that there is no legal plan. The secret plan—or the plan that is being kept secret, I should say—is simply to do what you have done before and hope that circumstances—

Constitution, Europe, External Affairs and Culture Committee [Draft]

Legal Mechanism for any Independence Referendum

Meeting date: 18 December 2025

Jamie Halcro Johnston

The point that I am trying to extract from you—[Interruption.] Obviously, it is frustrating Mr Brown, and I apologise for that. Essentially, the First Minister of Scotland has said that there is a secret plan. Sorry—he said that there is a plan. It was described as “secret” by a former First Minster, and we have taken that into account.

It is clear that you are not offering anything different. There is no difference from what has been offered in the past.

Constitution, Europe, External Affairs and Culture Committee [Draft]

Transparency of Intergovernmental Activity

Meeting date: 18 December 2025

Jamie Halcro Johnston

I welcome that.

We have all sat on committees where Scottish statutory instruments have come through late, or UK Government legislation has come through late from the Scottish Government for consideration. Sometimes it is the responsibility of the Scottish Government that things are late; sometimes it is the responsibility of the UK Government. I hope that we all accept that.

I will move to another point. You have raised some concerns, issues and frustrations, and we can accept that some of them are understandable. Some of them are the same frustrations that local authorities in Scotland have with the Government about their relationship and engagement. I am not asking the cabinet secretary for particular examples but, first, would you recognise that point? Secondly, are there areas where the relationship between the Scottish Government and local government could provide more of a guide when it comes to relationships with the UK Government?

Constitution, Europe, External Affairs and Culture Committee [Draft]

Transparency of Intergovernmental Activity

Meeting date: 18 December 2025

Jamie Halcro Johnston

It is more about your experiences. I recognise that there are differences between the two relationships, but I wanted to know whether there is anything like best practice.

A more practical issue has been raised, which has been hinted at in our conversations today. A huge amount of the work that goes on is civil servants behind the scenes. There is a recognition, probably on both sides, that some civil servants in the Scottish Government do not always understand the pressures that UK civil servants work under, and vice versa, which has implications. It was suggested that there could be more exchange and more opportunities for working together. I know that there is some exchange. We were down there just before or after a week of engagement. I wondered whether more consideration could be given to interaction between civil servants and officials, to allow both sides perhaps to get a better understanding of the challenges.

Constitution, Europe, External Affairs and Culture Committee [Draft]

Transparency of Intergovernmental Activity

Meeting date: 18 December 2025

Jamie Halcro Johnston

I would not question that at all. As I say, it is more of a positive. The issue is not simply a lack of meetings—not just sitting in an office for a day—but a lack of practical experiences. What happens when a piece of legislation is delayed or the budget is put out late—things like that?

Constitution, Europe, External Affairs and Culture Committee [Draft]

Transparency of Intergovernmental Activity

Meeting date: 18 December 2025

Jamie Halcro Johnston

Some of what I want to raise fits into this area.

Constitution, Europe, External Affairs and Culture Committee [Draft]

Transparency of Intergovernmental Activity

Meeting date: 18 December 2025

Jamie Halcro Johnston

I accept the points that are being made, and we have all accepted that there are concerns here. The point that I am making is that it is hard to get into the things that are happening behind the scenes and how well things are working when there is a narrative from the Scottish Government that things are not working—regardless of the fact that some things are working and some things are not. Let us be clear: the Scottish Government does not want devolution to work, because the ultimate aim is independence. We know that. I am slightly dubious about the idea that Keith Brown highlighted: that the punters have to know about this. I do not think that the punters care about this inquiry; they care about hospitals, roads and all the other things that matter.

When the Scottish Government’s narrative is that, regardless of what is happening, Government relations are not working and the relationship with the UK Government is not working, it is hard to dig down into the minutiae of the issues, such as those that Stephen Kerr raised, where things could be improved. Patrick Harvie suggested that there are areas where there could be improvements.

Constitution, Europe, External Affairs and Culture Committee [Draft]

Transparency of Intergovernmental Activity

Meeting date: 18 December 2025

Jamie Halcro Johnston

No, I was not.

Constitution, Europe, External Affairs and Culture Committee [Draft]

Transparency of Intergovernmental Activity

Meeting date: 18 December 2025

Jamie Halcro Johnston

He is poised.

Constitution, Europe, External Affairs and Culture Committee [Draft]

Transparency of Intergovernmental Activity

Meeting date: 18 December 2025

Jamie Halcro Johnston

I said “siloed”, but I perhaps should have said that it is more that departments are focused on their own areas. Thank you.