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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 18 March 2026
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Displaying 7545 contributions

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Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee

Hunting with Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 8 June 2022

Finlay Carson

In our session last week, it was suggested that NatureScot would not argue about what solutions were workable, and that it would work with the dog handler, other organisations or individuals. Is it not unlikely that NatureScot would come back and say, “Well, we think you’re wrong. You don’t need 15 dogs; you only need 10”? Will it not recognise, for example, that Ian Duncan Millar has been doing his job for a long time and is the expert? That is, unless it has grounds to suggest that it is an unreasonable number of dogs—and I do not know why it would do that.

What is really important, I suppose, is the relationship that has been built up between NatureScot and those who control the predators. I would like to think that there would not be a situation in which it would say, “You are wrong. We want to halve the number of dogs.” It would assume that the experts know best. The process has been focused on animal welfare, and we have to take that as given.

Rachael, do you have any further questions, or can I move to Jim Fairlie?

Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee

Hunting with Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 8 June 2022

Finlay Carson

We are back to the presumption that those who control the pests are the experts.

Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee

Hunting with Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 8 June 2022

Finlay Carson

I think that it is unclear whether drag hunting is considered to be dog training—I am certainly confused as to whether trail hunting could be included in that.

Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee

Hunting with Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 8 June 2022

Finlay Carson

That ends our evidence session. I thank you all for your valuable evidence, which will help to inform our work as we move forward.

We will suspend for a comfort break and a changeover of witnesses.

11:07 Meeting suspended.  

11:20 On resuming—  

Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee

Hunting with Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 8 June 2022

Finlay Carson

You said that you do not use dogs to help control foxes, but what is that decision based on? Given that the witnesses on the previous panel said that hunting with dogs is sometimes the most animal welfare-minded way to control foxes—it might be the only way to control them effectively in undergrowth or whatever—what did RSPB Scotland base that decision on?

Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee

Hunting with Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 8 June 2022

Finlay Carson

I ask everyone to bear in mind that we are discussing hunting with dogs. I fear that our discussion has grown arms and legs, and I would like us to focus on the bill.

Jim Fairlie and Alasdair Allan would like to ask supplementary questions.

Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee

Hunting with Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 8 June 2022

Finlay Carson

You want a flexible approach. This is not specifically about RSPB Scotland’s ethical stance on predator control, but do you believe that birds on land that is managed by organisations or individuals who take that ethical approach are at a disadvantage in that they are more likely to be predated because the option of using dogs to flush out predators is not considered? Does that approach put those birds at a disadvantage?

Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee

Hunting with Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 8 June 2022

Finlay Carson

I do not want to set up a battle between RSPB Scotland and anybody else, but are you suggesting that, although your aim is to protect birds, you are not actually protecting birds as much as you could, because you have taken an ethical stance on predator control, which we heard earlier in the meeting is not necessarily the best or most humane way to control foxes? Does your position mean that you are not protecting birds as well as you otherwise might?

Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee

Hunting with Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 8 June 2022

Finlay Carson

I am sorry—I do not mean to be rude—but we need to focus on hunting with dogs. It is not just about people who are out walking their dogs. We need to be really careful. We could stray into a whole range of other matters. The question is very much about exceptions to the two-dog limit.

Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee

Hunting with Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 8 June 2022

Finlay Carson

We move to section 8, which is on licensing. I call Jenni Minto.