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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 7 February 2026
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Displaying 529 contributions

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COVID-19 Recovery Committee

Coronavirus (Recovery and Reform) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 9 June 2022

Oliver Mundell

There is nothing in amendment 118 that would prevent the Government from acting. It would introduce a duty to seek and have regard to a report. It does not mean that the Government would have to stop if such a report was not forthcoming. The amendment is not designed as a delaying mechanism and I envisage that the report would likely follow action having been taken. It is not worded to be restrictive. I have been clear in drafting the amendment that that was what I sought to achieve. Does the Deputy First Minister accept that the report would be reasonable in principle provided that it did not delay ministers?

COVID-19 Recovery Committee

Coronavirus (Recovery and Reform) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 9 June 2022

Oliver Mundell

I accept the drafting issues. However, on the principle of school-based education being provided by local authorities in line with their statutory duties, what role do you see local authorities having? You said that the amendment would give them a veto, but you are effectively giving yourself the power through the bill to prevent them from carrying out their responsibilities. Do you accept that there must be a balance?

COVID-19 Recovery Committee

Coronavirus (Recovery and Reform) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 9 June 2022

Oliver Mundell

That is not really the point. You are taking away local authorities’ power to choose to keep a school open. You are removing their say in that and therefore preventing them from fulfilling their statutory duty, albeit possibly on good grounds. Is it not right to give them, rather than a veto, a greater say or role in reaching that decision in their locality with the young people and schools that they know best?

COVID-19 Recovery Committee

Coronavirus (Recovery and Reform) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 9 June 2022

Oliver Mundell

Given that you support that principle, do you recognise the value of putting it into the bill, maybe through a more tightly worded amendment, so that the position is a bit clearer and reassures the people who have to do the more difficult bit? I know that it is difficult to make the big decision, but it is more difficult to carry it out on the ground.

COVID-19 Recovery Committee

Coronavirus (Recovery and Reform) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 9 June 2022

Oliver Mundell

I intend to press amendment 112 and move all the amendments in my name. Even when there is an offer to work on matters later, I always think that if those matters are in the bill at the end of stage 2, it is easier to secure concessions at stage 3. The cabinet secretary said several times that some of the things that I am seeking could be done through regulation; we also heard about the Scottish Government’s preferred approach. Time and again, it comes back to the John Mason principle: the current Government might not be here, and it might be better to have things in the bill, to ensure that they are done for certain. If there are drafting issues, there is always a chance to fix them; that is how the process works.

COVID-19 Recovery Committee

Coronavirus (Recovery and Reform) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 9 June 2022

Oliver Mundell

I have no relevant interests to declare.

Section 1—Public health protection measures

COVID-19 Recovery Committee

Coronavirus (Recovery and Reform) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 9 June 2022

Oliver Mundell

In the system that we have in Scotland, local authorities are the providers of education in their areas. Of course, the Government has a role in working with them and directing national policy, but I do not want to have a situation in which we deny children their education and close education establishments without first getting agreement on that. Placing a duty on ministers to seek consent is the right approach.

Perhaps amendment 120, as currently worded, is too strong. I am willing to listen to what the Government says and to try to strike a better balance that secures consensus. As the bill stands, the balance is wrong. The bill puts too much power in ministers’ hands and does not recognise the role that our local authorities play in the delivery of education.

COVID-19 Recovery Committee

Coronavirus (Recovery and Reform) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 9 June 2022

Oliver Mundell

I am interested to learn how the wording of the amendment would prevent ministers from taking action. The only duty that it places on them is to seek a report.

COVID-19 Recovery Committee

Coronavirus (Recovery and Reform) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 9 June 2022

Oliver Mundell

Yes, but if there is no report to have regard to, then you would have to have regard to it after the time.

COVID-19 Recovery Committee

Coronavirus (Recovery and Reform) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 9 June 2022

Oliver Mundell

I will speak briefly because this comes back to the point about balance, which we have already covered at length. I am interested to hear the Government’s response to my amendment. I do not think that there is a great deal more for me to say.

I move amendment 113.