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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 7 February 2026
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Displaying 529 contributions

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Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 10 January 2023

Oliver Mundell

I have heard the point that the minister has made regarding an open-door policy. During my time in Parliament I have always found the minister easy to work with on issues. However, with the best will in the world, part of the problem here is that you cannot guarantee that you will be the minister making the decisions. We face that issue time and again when we are considering other powers and legislation. The promises that you make as a minister today are only as good as the time that you spend in this particular office. My worry is that we are handing over to ministers quite wide-ranging powers on a very significant piece of legislation. Ordinarily, we would expect this kind of bill to have much more detail. Do you not think that that is a problem?

Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 10 January 2023

Oliver Mundell

I hear what you are saying, and I have trust and faith in people, but the question that I ask myself is whether I have trust and faith in Government ministers to listen. You are asking us to put a huge amount of trust and faith in Government ministers—rather than the Parliament itself—to do that listening. A number of organisations, including the Equality and Human Rights Commission and the Faculty of Advocates, question whether that approach is appropriate. The Care Inspectorate has questioned whether there is enough information to know how it will work in practice. That is not getting off to a good start in building confidence, is it?

Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 10 January 2023

Oliver Mundell

Why does it surprise you that organisations would be concerned, not about the substance of the bill but about the process? Why does it surprise you that organisations would be concerned about the appropriateness of the bill that you are presenting to Parliament?

Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 10 January 2023

Oliver Mundell

Why do the Faculty of Advocates and the Equality and Human Rights Commission have concerns about a framework bill?

Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 10 January 2023

Oliver Mundell

I accept that. However, it is a concern that organisations that most people would accept as having no direct vested interest in the bill, which are experienced in how legislation works and have interacted regularly with the Parliament’s legislative process over the past two decades, are questioning the appropriateness of the Government’s chosen method in a major piece of legislation. This committee has a role to play in reporting on secondary legislation and it is worrying that major organisations are questioning not the substance of the bill but the Government’s approach. There is a big risk attached to asking the Parliament to go forward with what you described as a novel approach, which seems to be based entirely on trusting ministers to listen—something that I do not think is the experience of people across the country.

Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 10 January 2023

Oliver Mundell

I have a specific point for the minister. Is it possible for Parliament to amend Government regulations?

Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 10 January 2023

Oliver Mundell

You have deliberately limited the scope of the bill by using this method. Members will have limited opportunities to amend the legislation when it comes to the detail, because you have put it all to one side for later. That is not proper parliamentary process and it does not allow the Parliament to do its job of holding you to account properly, which creates a real risk and danger for people who will rely on the legislation.

I do not think that we can say that the Parliament or the Government has a very good record when it comes to delivering for many of the people who will be impacted by the legislation. It seems wrong that you are asking us to put so much confidence and trust in a process that means that there will be no scrutiny. Even if people disagree with what you are doing, you will be able to go ahead anyway. The Parliament will not be allowed to do its job. I do not see how you, as a member of the Parliament and a minister in the Government, can think that that will lead to effective co-design or robust legislation. It is just wrong.

Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee

Retained EU Law (Revocation and Reform) Bill

Meeting date: 13 December 2022

Oliver Mundell

Thank you for that. The power to restate can be used to consolidate REUL or assimilated law into a single instrument. What are the implications of that? What are your views on that? That question is open to all three witnesses.

Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee

Retained EU Law (Revocation and Reform) Bill

Meeting date: 13 December 2022

Oliver Mundell

We have touched on this point already in relation to the appropriateness of the negative procedure, to which I will come back in a second. When it comes to restating REUL or assimilating law, the power to use different “words or concepts” does not go as far as making

“substantive change to the policy effect of legislation.”

Morag Ross mentioned substantive change in one of her answers. What is the threshold for substantive change? Where does that sit?

Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee

Retained EU Law (Revocation and Reform) Bill

Meeting date: 13 December 2022

Oliver Mundell

That is okay. As no one else has a view on that, I will move on.

My final question is on regulations that reinstate REUL or assimilated law and that are subject to the negative procedure except when they amend primary legislation, in which case the draft affirmative procedure is to be used. What is your view on the appropriateness of that procedure? Obviously, that is slightly different to other parts of the bill.

10:30