Seòmar agus comataidhean

Thank you. I appreciate that other members want to ask questions, convener.

The question is, though, how do you resolve those issues? The question that faces us all is whether there should be a centralised approach of removing power, authority and, probably, funding from the current structure in which services are delivered locally by local authorities through ring-fenced grant budgets from the Scottish Government and giving it to some form of nationalised service. We need to consider the implications of that.

It is still very unclear where the money will flow from, where it will be diverted to and which cohort of people will deliver the service. You talk a lot about lived experience, but I get the impression that we are not listening to the lived experience of front-line social workers, who are telling us, and have given us evidence that, to quote one Aberdeen city health and social care partnership,

“it is leadership not structure that is the most important.”

COSLA is concerned that removing justice social work from local authority responsibility will impede multi-agency working with other local authorities. A local approach is the best one, because those services are best managed and delivered locally.

There is a concern that nationalisation will result in, effectively, a privatisation of the service, whereby work that is currently being done by people who are paid and employed by the public sector will be outsourced through a national procurement process to a third party—perhaps a commercial or private one. Is that a genuine risk?

In that case, I am happy to give way to other members. If possible, I would then like to come back with a summary of what I would like to say.

I am all for ministerial accountability, but that does not address any of the practical questions that have been put to the committee to which we do not have answers. It seems that no one has answers to practical questions such as whether all the social workers who are currently employed by local authorities will be transferred, under the Transfer of Undertakings (Protection of Employment) Regulations, to some form of other Government agency. All those things remain known unknowns.

Given that we have issues with retention and churn in the social work sector and massive problems with resource to deliver local services, it is unclear how any of what you describe will address the clear current shortfalls.

Before you come on to that point, I will respond to the financial issues regarding the bill. At the end of the day, in all this, money talks. You will be acutely aware of what I think was a highly critical, and unanimous, report from the Finance and Public Administration Committee on the weakness of the financial memorandum to the NCS bill.

Will the money follow from the current status quo of grant funding to local authorities and be redistributed to another agency or body, or will it continue to flow as is, with—as you said—only the lines of accountability changing?

And stress—there is a huge amount of stress.

I am sure that you look forward to it. I commend to you watching the video of that evidence session. I went into the meeting with a very open mind, but, having sat through the evidence from Social Work Scotland, COSLA, Unison and members of health and social care partnerships, it was difficult to come away with any sense of positivity about the potential inclusion of community justice in the proposed national care service. A number of criticisms were made about consultation prior to the publication of the bill, which I do not think have been addressed, and a number of valid concerns were raised about the structure of what any such integration might look like, particularly around people, funding, structures, leadership and so on. I appreciate that you have not watched that evidence session, but, without having seen it, I am sure that you will understand what some of those criticisms might be. Will you respond to them?

That is not the Scottish Government.

Good morning. Minister, did you follow the evidence session that the committee held on 23 November?

Before I comment, may I ask what we will be asked to do procedurally? That might affect what I say next, if that makes sense.

I thank members for their contributions. I feel like I am summing up a debate, when I am not, but I have spent some time on this issue.

First, I want to make clear that whatever I say next I do not say on behalf of the UK Government, the Northern Ireland Office or any other UK minister or secretary of state. These are purely my own views and those of the party in the Scottish Parliament. Generally, our party is supportive of the concept of the establishment of the independent commission for reconciliation and information recovery. That is not to say that every aspect of the bill is perfect in its current state but, like all bills—as we know only too well—this one will go through an iterative process of scrutiny. The bill will go through the due process in Westminster, which, unlike the Scottish Parliament, also has the benefit of a second chamber.

The clue is in the name. The commission is one of reconciliation and information recovery, and I believe that those are important steps forward in the peace process. The argument that both sides of the political spectrum in Northern Ireland have some opposition to it, by its very nature, demonstrates the necessity of the bill, because truth and closure are key pillars of that process, and if the independent commission—if it is really independent—can continue some of that work, that is important.

It is a five-part bill with 58 clauses, so it is complex and, although there are some controversial elements—particularly on immunity and perhaps even the issue of prisoner release and so on—those issues have been controversial for many years, as part of the peace process.

There are positive aspects on investigation of deaths, fatal accident inquiries and so on. There are many aspects to the bill, and it is very easy to take a simplistic and one-sided view on it. I am open minded to what the bill is trying to achieve, and I feel that it is appropriate to let it make its progress.

On the specifics of what we are being asked to do in the context of legislative consent, I want to comment on three things. The Government gave three reasons for opposition rather than two, I think.

The first is around concerns that were raised by the Lord Advocate, which were duly and quite well stated. When we considered the issue previously, we did not have those concerns on paper. From looking at the correspondence from the Lord Advocate to the secretary of state in the UK Government, it is clear that those concerns are well laid out. Equally, the letter goes on to offer a pathway through the concerns.

The Lord Advocate talked about a memorandum of understanding with each of the United Kingdom prosecution authorities—in relation to referrals, for example. I do not want to put words into the Lord Advocate’s mouth, but it seems that there is a genuine and constructive willingness on her part to find a solution to any conflict that might arise between her independent role as head of public prosecutions in Scotland and interaction with the bill and the powers that Pauline McNeill spoke of.

It is not quite as simple as our handing over powers from Scotland to another jurisdiction, today. It sounds as if there is an on-going conversation to be had, and we should allow that to progress. I note that it is naturally disappointing that we have not had a response to those concerns, and I hope that we will have sight of that when it is made available.

The second point is about compliance with the European convention on human rights and the potential legal implications of the bill for human rights law. I questioned that in the evidence session with the cabinet secretary, and I felt like he gave more of an opinion than anything else. The cabinet secretary was unable to point us in the direction of any specific published reviews or advice on that. It seems to be something of a smokescreen.

The third point—this is probably the one that worries me most—is the political disagreement on the bill. The Government’s primary reason for not offering legislative consent is that it believes that, as drafted, the bill is incompatible with the Scottish Government’s view that those who suffered during the troubles should be able to obtain justice. That sounds more like a difference of opinion on policy rather than one based on legality.

That is, of course, based on the bill as drafted. The bill will go through a process and I expect all parties, including members who represent the Scottish Government’s party in the UK Parliament, to conduct that process properly. We put our trust in them to do that.

For that reason, our view is that we should offer legislative consent, let the bill run its course, and work through the many issues that I have mentioned. Holding it back at this stage would be unhelpful. We therefore do not agree with any recommendation to withhold consent.