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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 9 November 2025
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Displaying 1737 contributions

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Public Audit Committee [Draft]

“NHS in Scotland: Spotlight on governance”

Meeting date: 24 September 2025

Jamie Greene

Good morning. My first question, off the back of the previous series of questions, is on the diversity of boards and public appointments. Mr Bruce, you will obviously be aware that, outside of this room, there is a much wider discussion and narrative on the use of diversity, equality and inclusion in public appointments, including those of board members and chairs. There is a large school of thought in either direction as to the importance or necessity of that.

I am not particularly asking for your view on the politics of all that but, as someone who has oversight of appointments to quite senior positions across 100-odd agencies, what is your view on that?

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

“NHS in Scotland: Spotlight on governance”

Meeting date: 24 September 2025

Jamie Greene

That is interesting. There is a valid debate around how far one should go to ensure diversity; again, there is a spectrum of views on that. I am sure that other members around the table have sat on recruitment panels for public appointments; I have done a couple over the years, and there was little diversity among the candidates that made it through the sifting process, yet there were good candidates who I felt would have added diversity due to not just their protected characteristics but what they would have brought to the table. People simply do not make it through due to the quite rigorous and specified points-based systems that we often use for such panels; they rule people out of the process early on, unfortunately, and I have not found that to be a good thing.

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

“NHS in Scotland: Spotlight on governance”

Meeting date: 24 September 2025

Jamie Greene

That is very helpful, and I think that members of the Scottish Parliament might be first on my list of people to invite you to talk to. We have obviously had a lot of board members in front of us over the years and we have seen some of the most egregious failures of boards, particularly off the back of reports from the Auditor General, and they tend to fall into one of two categories. One is where there is a blurring of relationships between boards, chairs, executive management teams, the agencies that work for organisations full time, and the Scottish Government sponsors and civil servants.

The other category is where there has been a complete breakdown of those relationships. What proactive work do you do to look at those relationships? What have you identified in any work that you have done?

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

“NHS in Scotland: Spotlight on governance”

Meeting date: 24 September 2025

Jamie Greene

Is that a problem for you? It seems like a reactive role rather than a proactive one. You have already identified some patterns of issues in the NHS around turnover and the failure rate for chair appointments, for example, and the issues that certain boards are having in recruiting board members and so on. You have, over a longer period, a nice wide view of that. Would you like the power to have a more proactive role in digging into investigations in the same way that Audit Scotland, if it so chooses, can do a report on a particular body? Would you like to be able to do the same?

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

“NHS in Scotland: Spotlight on governance”

Meeting date: 24 September 2025

Jamie Greene

Parliament has power to legislate in that area.

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

“NHS in Scotland: Spotlight on governance”

Meeting date: 24 September 2025

Jamie Greene

If there was an appetite or a need to give the commissioner’s office more power, we could do so. Is there a gap in the market for somebody to look at these 100 public bodies and how to reduce the level of complaints that come in? In other words, is there a gap for someone to look at improving best practice before it gets to the stage where things are going amiss?

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

“NHS in Scotland: Spotlight on governance”

Meeting date: 24 September 2025

Jamie Greene

Please do not take the next question as a difficult one, because I do not want to breach any confidences in your work, but how many complaints against board members—there will be nearly 800 people in this space—have you dealt with over the past year, and how many live cases are you working on? Are you seeing any common patterns or themes emerging from the nature of those complaints—again, without mentioning the specifics of them?

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

“NHS in Scotland: Spotlight on governance”

Meeting date: 24 September 2025

Jamie Greene

Do you report on those? Are they a matter of public record?

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

“NHS in Scotland: Spotlight on governance”

Meeting date: 24 September 2025

Jamie Greene

If you have an NHS board that has financial governance issues and is in the red, or has performance or operational issues—if, for example, it is not meeting any of its clinical targets or has high turnover or other issues of governance—do you have to wait on someone complaining to you before there is an investigation into that board? To me, there are clearly situations where the board has a direct level of accountability for overseeing all of the above, and there are clearly failures in many of those areas—we look at them weekly.

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

“NHS in Scotland: Spotlight on governance”

Meeting date: 24 September 2025

Jamie Greene

What due diligence takes place to ensure that people are not brought into a health board when the board that they have previously run—or been an integral part of running—has been underperforming operationally, clinically or financially? Are those the people you want in our health boards?