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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 13 September 2025
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Displaying 1631 contributions

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Public Audit Committee

“National Fraud Initiative in Scotland 2024”

Meeting date: 26 September 2024

Jamie Greene

In that same paragraph, you say that savings—to use that term—have increased from around £15 million to more than £21 million in a short space of time. By default, there is an increase in the value of the activity, but that does not necessarily mean that there is an increase in fraudulent activity. It is just about the value.

Public Audit Committee

“National Fraud Initiative in Scotland 2024”

Meeting date: 26 September 2024

Jamie Greene

I guess that where I am heading with all this is that what strikes me about the whole conversation this morning is that perhaps that is where there is a failing in the process. Dealing with that might help you to deal with the issue that you mention in your key messages and to move from saying that it is not clear whether fraud has increased to a position where you can take a more definitive view. Having done the work that identifies the savings and fed all that back to the bodies involved, you could let them do their thing in identifying what is fraud, what is valid and what is erroneous and where there are systems issues or manual issues, and then they could feed that back to you. You could then insert another section in future reports that says, “Having identified the savings, this is what we think the outcomes were.”

I appreciate that that would be an extra piece of work for you and that it might even be outside your statutory requirements, but would that extra piece of analysis give people more confidence in the value of the work that you do? Do you see where I am going?

Public Audit Committee

“National Fraud Initiative in Scotland 2024”

Meeting date: 26 September 2024

Jamie Greene

To be clear, is it your understanding that there is no clawback from local authorities or, indeed, any payments to local authorities from the DWP?

Public Audit Committee

“National Fraud Initiative in Scotland 2024”

Meeting date: 26 September 2024

Jamie Greene

I presume, then, that the media article that I came across in my research ahead of today’s meeting was erroneous in claiming that Perth and Kinross Council is

“one of ... two UK local authorities which does not share ... electoral roll”

data

“with the National Fraud Initiative”.

Is that true, or is the article incorrect?

Public Audit Committee

“National Fraud Initiative in Scotland 2024”

Meeting date: 26 September 2024

Jamie Greene

Okay. Perhaps that is something that we can follow up with the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities, for example, as the body that assists and represents a number of local authorities in Scotland.

Public Audit Committee

“National Fraud Initiative in Scotland 2024”

Meeting date: 26 September 2024

Jamie Greene

Do you think that the industry is a bit behind the curve in that respect? Other people are already making extensive use of AI in their business processes.

Public Audit Committee

“National Fraud Initiative in Scotland 2024”

Meeting date: 26 September 2024

Jamie Greene

Does Audit Scotland charge fees for that work?

Public Audit Committee

“National Fraud Initiative in Scotland 2024”

Meeting date: 26 September 2024

Jamie Greene

Do any local authorities in Scotland not participate in the NFI?

Public Audit Committee

“National Fraud Initiative in Scotland 2024”

Meeting date: 26 September 2024

Jamie Greene

I was particularly struck by the second of the key messages on page 3 of your report. Perhaps I can draw your attention to the last sentence of that and ask you to explain or clarify a little bit what it means and why you have said it. In summary, you say:

“Overall, it is not clear whether underlying levels of fraud have increased since 2020/21.”

That flags up a point of concern for me, but I will give you an opportunity to clarify what you mean by that.

Public Audit Committee

“National Fraud Initiative in Scotland 2024”

Meeting date: 26 September 2024

Jamie Greene

Do you add value to the work that in-house fraud teams do? I presume that the DWP has a massive fraud team, as does His Majesty’s Revenue and Customs and other big bodies across the UK that manage large sums of money for large numbers of people. I presume that they have many people who sit in an office and look at fraud. What value does your small team add to any of that?