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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 13 September 2025
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Displaying 1631 contributions

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Meeting of the Commission

Audit Scotland Budget Proposal 2025-26

Meeting date: 18 December 2024

Jamie Greene

Okay. I presume that any underspend on people costs at the end of the financial year is set. There is no rolling over of budget for people, for example.

Meeting of the Commission

Audit Scotland Budget Proposal 2025-26

Meeting date: 18 December 2024

Jamie Greene

Audit firms will incur increased national insurance costs for their own staff. Is that factored into the increase that you have agreed with them for the work that they undertake, or will there have to be an NIC increase over and above what you have agreed?

Meeting of the Commission

Audit Scotland Budget Proposal 2025-26

Meeting date: 18 December 2024

Jamie Greene

Good—so they should be.

That is very helpful. I appreciate that there are a number of moving parts, and that complexity makes it difficult to take a snapshot in relation to a budget ask and present it in that way. For future years, it might be helpful to get a snapshot of those moving parts in order to see, for example, how the average salary is changing and to get a feel for the number of people that you have and, relatively, how much that costs.

In effect, year on year, you come back to ask for more money for people. That seems to be off the back of annual pay rises as opposed to fluctuations in the types or number of people that you have. The other side of that is marrying that up with the type of work that you are doing and the implementation of automation and AI, for example. I am looking for more of a medium-term strategy, rather than this annual snapshot that we seem to get. However, perhaps that is for another session on another day.

I am glad that modernisation has been mentioned a few times, because I want to talk about that. I have a specific question on this year’s budget ask. Apart from national insurance contributions, the biggest chunk of your 10 per cent year-on-year increase relates to your request for £672,000 for audit modernisation. Why is that a people cost? The commission assumed that that would be a cost for consultancy, an agency, software or development work or some form of pre-implementation cost, but that budget line seems to be a cost for people. Why is that?

Meeting of the Commission

Audit Scotland Budget Proposal 2025-26

Meeting date: 18 December 2024

Jamie Greene

How reliable is that estimate? With the greatest respect, public bodies do not have the best track record in forecasting budgets for software and modernisation projects. I am concerned that, although £672,000 this year is a big chunk, you might be loading the costs towards the end of the project and that, in a year or two, we will find that you come back to ask for £2 million or £3 million, because the cost of the whole thing has just ballooned.

Meeting of the Commission

Audit Scotland Budget Proposal 2025-26

Meeting date: 18 December 2024

Jamie Greene

That follows on nicely from the chair’s line of questioning with regard to your passing on the uplift in fees, which is much lower than what you are being charged by external companies. What is the strategy in that respect? For example, given that a small handful of very big companies perform the lion’s share of such audit work, is there a risk that, in future, they might simply not bid for it in light of the relatively low margins for such work or the nature of the bodies that they are required to audit?

Meeting of the Commission

Audit Scotland Budget Proposal 2025-26

Meeting date: 18 December 2024

Jamie Greene

That is interesting, bearing in mind what we are looking at for next year and your asks there. I presume that the increase includes year 2 of the pay deal that was agreed, which involves an increase of 3.8 per cent. However, does it include or exclude the national insurance contribution increases? I presume that they were not factored into your initial projections for 2025-26.

11:45  

Meeting of the Commission

Audit Scotland Budget Proposal 2025-26

Meeting date: 18 December 2024

Jamie Greene

You have come to the table asking for a 10 per cent increase overall, which is substantial. I am trying to break it down into the constituent parts to make it easier to scrutinise. A big chunk of that is the national insurance contribution. I am trying to find out why Audit Scotland felt that this was the mechanism to try to recuperate that money.

Meeting of the Commission

Audit Scotland Budget Proposal 2025-26

Meeting date: 18 December 2024

Jamie Greene

Something else that struck me about that table on page 12 is the staff projections. Please do not take this in any way as a criticism, but it jumped out at me. For the years 2024-25, 2025-26, 2026-27 and 2027-28, you have projected pretty much the same number of staff. It is very unusual in an organisation to have such certainty, year on year. In addition—maybe this is a question for the board—does having the same numbers of people scream of efficiency and productivity improvements? Do you suspect that the volume of work will be the same? Will you need more people to do more work, because of the change in working hours? I am trying to get my head around this, because it strikes me as such an unusual forecast in a big organisation.

Meeting of the Commission

Audit Scotland Budget Proposal 2025-26

Meeting date: 18 December 2024

Jamie Greene

In essence, you are saying that your current cost estimate for the modernisation project is about £2.2 million—that is a back of a fag packet analysis—and you are splitting that over three financial years, with the first tranche being an ask of £672,000 for next year and an expectation of £1.5 million over the following two years’ budgets. Is that correct?

Meeting of the Commission

Audit Scotland Budget Proposal 2025-26

Meeting date: 18 December 2024

Jamie Greene

That is much appreciated—thank you.