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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 7 May 2025
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Displaying 1514 contributions

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Public Audit Committee

“National Fraud Initiative in Scotland 2024”

Meeting date: 26 September 2024

Jamie Greene

Do any local authorities in Scotland not participate in the NFI?

Public Audit Committee

“National Fraud Initiative in Scotland 2024”

Meeting date: 26 September 2024

Jamie Greene

I was particularly struck by the second of the key messages on page 3 of your report. Perhaps I can draw your attention to the last sentence of that and ask you to explain or clarify a little bit what it means and why you have said it. In summary, you say:

“Overall, it is not clear whether underlying levels of fraud have increased since 2020/21.”

That flags up a point of concern for me, but I will give you an opportunity to clarify what you mean by that.

Public Audit Committee

“National Fraud Initiative in Scotland 2024”

Meeting date: 26 September 2024

Jamie Greene

Do you add value to the work that in-house fraud teams do? I presume that the DWP has a massive fraud team, as does His Majesty’s Revenue and Customs and other big bodies across the UK that manage large sums of money for large numbers of people. I presume that they have many people who sit in an office and look at fraud. What value does your small team add to any of that?

Public Audit Committee

“National Fraud Initiative in Scotland 2024”

Meeting date: 26 September 2024

Jamie Greene

I am sure that, when the Auditor General comes knocking on the Scottish Commission for Public Audit’s door for more money, that will be part of his pitch.

I have one final question. Are you doing anything in relation to Covid-related fraud? Obviously, there has been a lot of noise around the potential scale, volume and value of many different aspects of Covid spending, particularly around the work of HMRC in relation to loans, grants and so on, but there may be other bodies that you do work for that have been affected by Covid fraud, to use that phrase.

Public Audit Committee

“National Fraud Initiative in Scotland 2024”

Meeting date: 26 September 2024

Jamie Greene

I presume, then, that the media article that I came across in my research ahead of today’s meeting was erroneous in claiming that Perth and Kinross Council is

“one of ... two UK local authorities which does not share ... electoral roll”

data

“with the National Fraud Initiative”.

Is that true, or is the article incorrect?

Public Audit Committee

“National Fraud Initiative in Scotland 2024”

Meeting date: 26 September 2024

Jamie Greene

Okay. Perhaps that is something that we can follow up with the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities, for example, as the body that assists and represents a number of local authorities in Scotland.

Public Audit Committee

“National Fraud Initiative in Scotland 2024”

Meeting date: 26 September 2024

Jamie Greene

Do you think that the industry is a bit behind the curve in that respect? Other people are already making extensive use of AI in their business processes.

Public Audit Committee

“National Fraud Initiative in Scotland 2024”

Meeting date: 26 September 2024

Jamie Greene

They all do.

Public Audit Committee

“National Fraud Initiative in Scotland 2024”

Meeting date: 26 September 2024

Jamie Greene

Thank you, convener, and good morning, gentlemen. I want to follow up a couple of areas in your report that are of interest to me, but I have an overarching question first, because I want to get my head around the process. Audit Scotland undertakes the work of the NFI in Scotland. Is that on behalf of the Public Sector Fraud Authority or are you contracted by the authority? What is your relationship to the body that oversees the UK-wide NFI?

Public Audit Committee

“National Fraud Initiative in Scotland 2024”

Meeting date: 26 September 2024

Jamie Greene

I am trying to get my head around the flow. If you are, say, a Scottish local council, do you pay a fee to participate in the exercise?