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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 6 May 2025
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Displaying 1514 contributions

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Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2023/24 audit of the Scottish Government Consolidated Accounts”

Meeting date: 7 November 2024

Jamie Greene

Good morning. I have a broad range of areas to cover. I will start by taking us back to something that Carole Grant said about outstanding accounts from 2022-23 that are still to be produced, published and made available. In correspondence from the chief financial officer just last week, we received a summary of the final outturn for 2022-23. I want to have a quick look at that, because it is relevant to this year’s consolidated accounts. Does that financial outturn take into account best guesstimates for those departments that are yet to report? Is it your understanding that there may be another version of the final outturn—a final final outturn, if you like?

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2023/24 audit of the Scottish Government Consolidated Accounts”

Meeting date: 7 November 2024

Jamie Greene

It would probably be helpful to do that. Before I start talking about this, I presume that it is all in the public domain. I am looking at page 13 of the correspondence from the chief financial officer, rather than at your report, but it is relevant. If you do not have that, we can look at it some other time.

I imagine that the same will be true when we have the conversation about 2023-24. What are you looking for when you see huge underspend figures in the final outturn?

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2023/24 audit of the Scottish Government Consolidated Accounts”

Meeting date: 7 November 2024

Jamie Greene

That is diplomatic.

The point that I am making is that we hear evidence of projects being put on hold, reprofiled or moved into future years to make ends meet, as is required of Government, and we hear about moratoriums on new capital investment. It is right for the public to ask us why schools or ferries are not being built and why hospitals are not being replaced when we are producing bits of paper that show £0.5 billion of underspend in the final outturn. I appreciate that the answer probably lies in complex accounting, but that straightforward question is asked of Parliament, which is why I raise it.

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2023/24 audit of the Scottish Government Consolidated Accounts”

Meeting date: 7 November 2024

Jamie Greene

While we are on the issue of commercial assets, I might well jump ahead to the issue of Ferguson Marine and the assets in that respect. Your report specifically picks out MV Glen Rosa and MV Glen Sannox. The estimate for completing the vessels still sits at around £300 million. I think that that is your understanding, too, but in your report you make some criticism of the due diligence process with regard to value for money. Can you talk us through your concerns?

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2023/24 audit of the Scottish Government Consolidated Accounts”

Meeting date: 7 November 2024

Jamie Greene

That is really helpful. Perhaps those are questions for Government departments to answer in the future.

I will move the conversation on to strategic commercial assets, on which your report helpfully provides some analysis. The strategic commercial assets division is a fairly new venture, in governance terms. My understanding is that it employs around 40 staff and spends a considerable amount of money on external consultants. I use the word “considerable”, which is subjective. It spent £1.6 million last year. Is there any indication of the cost of that operation to the Government? In your opinion, does it represent good value? It is a fairly new set-up.

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2023/24 audit of the Scottish Government Consolidated Accounts”

Meeting date: 7 November 2024

Jamie Greene

I guess that that is the question. We know the total value of money invested from the public purse and we know what it was thought might be recoverable, or what the value of the loan was, which is not necessarily the value of the business itself. That would be a whole other conversation. That value seems to have jumped up massively. Are you confident that there is sufficient rationale for what is almost a doubling of the recoverable value of the loans?

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2023/24 audit of the Scottish Government Consolidated Accounts”

Meeting date: 7 November 2024

Jamie Greene

I look forward to that work, if it occurs.

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2023/24 audit of the Scottish Government Consolidated Accounts”

Meeting date: 7 November 2024

Jamie Greene

It is interesting that you picked up on local government. That is the only line in the accounts that seems to suggest an overspend—of £5 million. Every other budget line that has been presented to us has a considerable underspend, totalling £509 million—half a billion pounds. Is that normal? I am new to the committee, but a £0.5 billion underspend, in the final outturn versus the budget, seems like an awful lot of money.

09:30  

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2023/24 audit of the Scottish Government Consolidated Accounts”

Meeting date: 7 November 2024

Jamie Greene

Auditor General, you will be aware that the vessels were supposed to cost under £100 million—that is, for both. The latest figure, back in March, was £300 million. My suspicion is that it might have gone up since then, given the further problems that have been encountered at the yard. You do not state that that does not sound like value for money, but you allude to it. Is that your assessment?

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2023/24 audit of the Scottish Government Consolidated Accounts”

Meeting date: 7 November 2024

Jamie Greene

From a public expenditure point of view, if that £100 million becomes £350 million or £400 million, is there not a risk that costs will endlessly spiral? Is there a mechanism for intervening and saying, “Look—you can’t just keep chucking money at something endlessly”? Those figures seem to show massive jumps, not little increments of overspend, so when you look at budget versus what is actually being spent—when things are going massively over budget, by hundreds of millions of pounds, in a very short space of time—what is the cut-off?