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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 30 October 2025
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Displaying 1731 contributions

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Public Audit Committee [Draft]

Additional Support for Learning

Meeting date: 7 May 2025

Jamie Greene

No, that was helpful—thank you.

The point that I will go on to make in my line of questioning is that many issues that are categorised as additional support needs are non-educational. They might be related to health or wider society, or they might be domestic or related to substance abuse, family or bereavement. Teachers can do nothing or very little about many of those things, in the sense that what happens inside the classroom will not affect what happens outside the classroom.

Is that a scenario in which you will never be able to crack the nut? Given that so many other public agencies and bodies are involved in tackling those wider societal issues that are resulting in poor outcomes for young people, what happens in the classroom will never be able to fix that.

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

Additional Support for Learning

Meeting date: 7 May 2025

Jamie Greene

You said that there is more that “we” need to do—who is the “we”? If we work on the assumption that teachers and pupil support assistants are working flat out and are doing their very best—they are at capacity, in the sense that there is nothing more that they could do to help to get it right for every child—where does the gap lie? Where is the missing link?

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

Additional Support for Learning

Meeting date: 7 May 2025

Jamie Greene

Convener, I am sure that a good follow-up to this evidence session would be to hear from teaching unions in response to some of the evidence that we have heard. Perhaps we could think about that.

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

Additional Support for Learning

Meeting date: 7 May 2025

Jamie Greene

So, a small proportion of schools have a separate, dedicated provision, rather than mainstreaming additional support for learning assistance.

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

Additional Support for Learning

Meeting date: 7 May 2025

Jamie Greene

Does every secondary school in Scotland have someone who supports children with their mental health? Is there a qualified, dedicated mental health support contact—not a teacher—in every secondary school in Scotland?

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

Additional Support for Learning

Meeting date: 7 May 2025

Jamie Greene

That is very helpful. Laura, did you want to come in?

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

Additional Support for Learning

Meeting date: 7 May 2025

Jamie Greene

Yes. The Morgan review picked up on that—it said that other vocational destinations should be seen as positive outcomes as well when measuring like for like. That is a very good point.

Mr Rennick, your department covers education and justice, I believe.

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

Additional Support for Learning

Meeting date: 7 May 2025

Jamie Greene

Is that not an interesting point? I am looking at the table that Mr Beattie provided, which relates to just one council. I appreciate that every council will have different pressure points, but young people who have a social, emotional or behavioural difficulty make up the largest group in the ASL category. One can only assume that the steady rise in that percentage in the past five to 10 years—it is probably a long-term trend—has taken place because, when there is a decline in discipline outside the school environment, in the home environment in particular, that behaviour translates into the school environment.

Pupils who are experiencing wider societal or emotional difficulties in the home environment or in social environments are bringing that into the classroom. There is only so much that a teacher can do in that respect. If public agencies or touch points of public services are letting those families down, are we not fighting a losing battle in the education environment? That is the point that I am trying to make.

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

Additional Support for Learning

Meeting date: 7 May 2025

Jamie Greene

Members of the Scottish Parliament often do school visits. Sometimes, we get asked to host a class for an hour or two, which, I find, is usually to give the teacher a break. When we observe classrooms across our various regions and constituencies, it is interesting that a proportion of pupils in them are clearly disruptive. When teachers have to deal with that, it is to the detriment of the learning of those pupils who want to get on or are particularly gifted in certain subject areas. That can be observed even in passing on short visits to classrooms, and I presume that that is a mainstream issue.

How much work has the Government done to look at the negative effect that the presumption of mainstreaming is having on exceptional pupils or pupils who are categorised as being “more able”?

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

Additional Support for Learning

Meeting date: 7 May 2025

Jamie Greene

Good—thank you, convener.