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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 18 May 2025
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Displaying 1531 contributions

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Criminal Justice Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2023-24

Meeting date: 26 October 2022

Jamie Greene

Thanks for that further clarification. To be clear on the numbers for the modelling of the 4,500, did you say that you had modelled a 17 per cent reduction in police officers and a 31 per cent reduction in staff, which would be back-office operational staff—non-warranted staff?

Criminal Justice Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2023-24

Meeting date: 26 October 2022

Jamie Greene

Are you talking about a scenario in which, given reduced numbers, you would only send officers out if something was dreadfully serious, such as a life-threatening situation or serious violence?

Criminal Justice Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2023-24

Meeting date: 26 October 2022

Jamie Greene

I want to ask about two things. First—and I apologise if I have misunderstood this—I thought that the modelling of a potential reduction of nearly 4,500 staff and officers was the worst case, but you are saying that it is not.

Criminal Justice Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2023-24

Meeting date: 26 October 2022

Jamie Greene

That was quite a jargon-filled response, although I understand the reason for that. You will have heard the candour in some of the responses from the front-line services represented in the previous panel about what the situation will mean in layman’s terms for people. Are we talking about, for example, delays in responses, the prioritisation of call-outs, the closure of stations or incidents not being responded to? What will this actually mean for the general public, who are worried and concerned about the situation?

Criminal Justice Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2023-24

Meeting date: 26 October 2022

Jamie Greene

That was helpful. Thank you.

Criminal Justice Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2023-24

Meeting date: 26 October 2022

Jamie Greene

I will let others come in.

Criminal Justice Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2023-24

Meeting date: 26 October 2022

Jamie Greene

I will open up a line of questioning that I hope Collette Stevenson will ask about in more detail.

The budget forecast is for flat cash settlements for the next couple of years, which will present challenges, as you have indicated. Is it fair to say that, even before that announcement, the SFRS had funding problems? My understanding is that, as far back as 2018, Audit Scotland identified a huge backlog of capital investment in the service, which is presumably the result of years of capital underinvestment. Where were we at before we got to today’s position? It is all very well looking ahead at what you might need to cut now, should a flat cash budget come to pass. However, even if the Government offers you more cash for your capital or revenue budgets, and you do not find yourself in the planning scenario that you have outlined today, that will not address the huge capital funding backlog. We know that that is putting the health, wellbeing and safety of fighters in jeopardy, given the stories that we have seen in the media in recent months.

Where were we at before now, how did we get to that point and why were things so bad in the first place?

Criminal Justice Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2023-24

Meeting date: 26 October 2022

Jamie Greene

In effect, would other types of crime, such as burglary, vandalism and car break-ins, be at the end of the queue?

Criminal Justice Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2023-24

Meeting date: 26 October 2022

Jamie Greene

That is quite a lot.

Secondly, the Scottish Police Federation, which is not here today, has submitted written evidence, in which it says that if the current plans

“come to fruition ... Crime will increase, victims ... will be let down,”

public

“confidence ... will diminish”

and

“more people”

will be left

“in crisis”

with

“many offenders unlikely to face any form of sanction, or ... any form of justice.”

To what extent do you agree or disagree with that statement?

Criminal Justice Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2023-24

Meeting date: 26 October 2022

Jamie Greene

Seventeen per cent is quite a lot. Other than the removal of community policing or campus police and other types of community engagement, what would a 17 per cent reduction look like in the number of police officers that the public would see on the streets responding to emergencies?