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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 16 June 2025
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Displaying 1144 contributions

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Criminal Justice Committee [Draft]

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 2 April 2025

Liam Kerr

Thank you.

Criminal Justice Committee [Draft]

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 2 April 2025

Liam Kerr

I will take you back to your amendment 185, cabinet secretary, which you talked about at the start of your speech, because I want to clarify something in my own mind. I was waiting to see whether you would address the point.

Amendment 185 removes the Lord Justice General as the person to appoint judges and inserts the Scottish ministers. My concern is that that could look like a power grab by the Scottish ministers. The approach would be in marked contrast with the position in England and Wales, where the independent Judicial Appointments Commission appoints judges. Forgive me if this is what you were doing earlier, but can you walk me through why it is necessary to give ministers that power and to take it away from the Lord Justice General?

10:00  

Criminal Justice Committee [Draft]

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 2 April 2025

Liam Kerr

I do not think that you are taking up too much time. This is really interesting, and it is clear that your colleagues are trying to get to the bottom of what to do.

Am I right that amendment 157 hinges on amendment 155, which we talked about last week and which was not moved? If I am right about that, amendment 157 is consequential, and because amendment 155 did not go through, we ought not to move forward with amendment 157 today. However, amendment 69 is completely separate—it relates to a separate issue. Therefore, colleagues can come to different views on amendments 157 and 69.

Criminal Justice Committee [Draft]

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 2 April 2025

Liam Kerr

Yes.

Criminal Justice Committee [Draft]

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 26 March 2025

Liam Kerr

I am listening carefully and am very much in support of what the member is trying to achieve. She raised the SCTS letter, and it is absolutely right that she focuses on that. The SCTS said that there might be “significant costs associated” with meeting the proposal. If I assume that the amendment passes today, how has the member quantified those costs, and how will she ensure that the Government properly funds that welcome change to ensure that it happens?

Criminal Justice Committee [Draft]

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 26 March 2025

Liam Kerr

That is a good point, and it is well made. However, as the member knows, corroboration, which makes us distinct, has changed. As I said at the outset of my submission, the Lord Advocate does not yet know what the implications of that are. In her letter, she specifically says:

“the full implications of these decisions are still being considered”.

The problem, it seems to me, is that we have to make a decision today. I absolutely concede that, because we have things such as corroboration, we will not be absolutely mapped to the system in England and Wales. However, I come back to the fact that the safest way to achieve justice is, surely, to mirror as closely as possible systems that are already in place and which we know operate—at least, on paper—well.

Criminal Justice Committee [Draft]

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 26 March 2025

Liam Kerr

I am genuinely very interested in what you are saying. What do you suggest that we do? We are faced with a bill that will do things and with various amendments that will change what the bill will do, but you are deeply uncomfortable—as, I suspect, we all are—with some of the proposals, because you do not think that there is sufficient evidence. So, what should we vote for today? If we vote for nothing, we will nevertheless be voting for change.

10:15  

Criminal Justice Committee [Draft]

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 26 March 2025

Liam Kerr

You have just said that you are “satisfied” that the jury size can go back to 15 and that that will not make a material difference. Could you tell us on what evidence you base that statement?

Criminal Justice Committee [Draft]

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 26 March 2025

Liam Kerr

I am genuinely listening very careful to the debate to work out what best to do here. You talk about the stand-alone court. Do you think that when those many voices spoke in support of a stand-alone sexual offences court, they might have had in their minds that it would be a new building with new people in it, with sufficient resources to deal with backlogs and to deal with cases timeously? Am I not right that, in fact, when we talk about a stand-alone court, it would be in part of the same building and would use the same people, the same processes and the same information technology, such that the outcomes that people are, rightly, desperate for might well not be achieved?

Criminal Justice Committee [Draft]

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 26 March 2025

Liam Kerr

The discussion about how things could be seen is interesting. Have you taken any soundings or evidence from the victims groups such as Victim Support Scotland, Rape Crisis Scotland and so on that back up your concern about how things could be seen?