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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 12 May 2025
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Displaying 979 contributions

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Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee

Hunting with Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 14 December 2022

Colin Smyth

I have just finished my comments, but I am happy to take an intervention.

Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee

Hunting with Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 14 December 2022

Colin Smyth

The minister may not like to refer to chasing, but that is the reality of what we are talking about in relation to the bill. That will happen—there is no question about that. The debate is about a pack of hounds or two dogs, but that is, in effect, what will happen. Whether the dogs are flushing out or chasing, the point has been made several times that two dogs could become exhausted over a period of time. The wild mammal that is being flushed out, chased or whatever could become exhausted, too. There is no animal welfare argument for substituting two dogs.

Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee

Hunting with Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 14 December 2022

Colin Smyth

That probably backs up my case. If it will not happen, why are you concerned about the bill making it an offence? Mr Fairlie says that we will never get a situation where two dogs will be used and then substituted effectively by another two dogs. I do not agree with him, but, if that is the case, there is no reason at all why we should not close the potential loophole in the bill and make it an offence for that to happen in the first place. Why would you be concerned about that?

Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee

Hunting with Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 14 December 2022

Colin Smyth

I am disappointed that there is no support for amendment 113. The purpose of the bill is to close loopholes that were left open by the Protection of Wild Mammals (Scotland) Act 2002 while avoiding any new loopholes. I believe that there is a potential loophole.

My amendments were designed to ensure that people who are hunting cannot, in effect, use multiple pairs of dogs, one after the other, to chase wild mammals. A relay would be needed only if those dogs were relentlessly pursuing a wild mammal over a long period of time. Excluding the word “relay” leaves that possibility open as a potential loophole that could be exploited.

I am not convinced that a second or a third pair of dogs substituting for the first are not likely to chase the same quarry, and I am unsure how that would be enforced. I am not convinced that a second or a third pair of dogs would not continue in the same area, effectively chasing the same quarry.

Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee

Hunting with Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 14 December 2022

Colin Smyth

I will press it.

Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee

Hunting with Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 14 December 2022

Colin Smyth

Amendments 114, 120, 125 and 128, in my name, would remove the use of a bird of prey as a method of killing. That is neither a humane nor an efficient method of killing, and there is therefore no justification for its being a permitted method.

In written evidence to the committee, the Scottish Animal Welfare Commission stated that it is

“not aware of any evidence that killing by a bird of prey is more humane than killing by a dog and would certainly doubt that it could be more humane than competent shooting”.

It is clear that the exception is not in line with the intentions of the bill, so I urge members to support my amendments to remove the inhumane practice of using a bird of prey as a method of killing wild animals. The only argument that I have heard against that is the fact that it is currently legal, which is a pretty lame argument.

Amendments 115, 121, 126 and 129 would specify that dogs are not to be used to kill an injured wild mammal. That is in keeping with a key purpose of the bill and would ensure that more humane methods are used to kill a wounded animal, avoiding the use of that scenario as a cover story. I urge members to support my amendments to ensure that emerging mammals are killed as humanely as possible and that there are no loopholes in the bill that might allow people to continue using dogs to kill wild mammals.

Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee

Hunting with Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 14 December 2022

Colin Smyth

In the light of the comments regarding the consistency of language and the use of the word “immediately” as opposed to, for example,

“as soon as reasonably possible”,

I will not move amendment 117 but might bring back an amendment at stage 3, because that point in the bill would benefit from clarity.

Amendment 117 not moved.

Amendment 118 not moved.

Amendment 81 moved—[Edward Mountain].

Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee

Hunting with Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 14 December 2022

Colin Smyth

Mr Mountain’s comments about large areas of land probably support the point that I am making. He says that people would need more than two dogs over a period of time only in a large area of land, so he is making my argument.

Mr Mountain said in a previous comment that the issue in England is about stags and that we will not have that issue in Scotland. However, it does not matter what the mammal is—the same principle exists. It is crucial that the bill is as effective as possible in ensuring that we do not create new loopholes. I remain unconvinced about the need to use multiple groups of dogs, which is in effect what the bill will allow to continue. I do not understand why, if that is unlikely to be required in a particular area, we would allow it to continue under legislation.

Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee

Hunting with Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 14 December 2022

Colin Smyth

In light of the minister’s comments on discussing the wording of amendments 115, 121, 126 and 129, I am happy not to move amendment 115.

Amendment 115 not moved.

Amendment 203 moved—[Rachael Hamilton].

Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee

Hunting with Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 14 December 2022

Colin Smyth

Amendments 113 and 124, in my name, would require that “reasonable steps are taken” to ensure that dogs do not form a relay. Mounted hunts in England have been observed using multiple pairs of dogs, one after the other, to chase stags. Amendments 113 and 124 would help avoid a similar practice emerging here in Scotland by making it an offence.

It is crucial that we take the opportunity to ensure that the bill is as robust as it can be, including by pre-empting any possible consequences, which we have done in relation to trail hunting. It is 20 years since the Protection of Wild Mammals (Scotland) Act 2002 was passed by Parliament, and it is clear that there were far too many loopholes, which people have been allowed to exploit for far too long. This bill cannot be a continuation of business as usual; it must close the loopholes that still exist and it must not create new ones.

Amendment 242, in the name of Rachael Hamilton, seeks to alter the definition of the phrase “under control” to include any

“dog ... carrying out an activity for which it has been trained”,

which is quite different from the common understanding of the term. I am concerned that the amendment would change the definition of “control” throughout the entire bill, which would have worrying consequences. For a start, it would allow the dog to be out of sight and hearing, which I think would completely undermine the bill.

I move amendment 113.