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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 1 May 2025
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Displaying 880 contributions

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Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee

High Speed Rail (Crewe-Manchester) Bill

Meeting date: 24 May 2022

Jenny Gilruth

I might bring in Kevin Gibson on the specifics, but I think that the assumption that the regulations should be disapplied is fundamentally wrong. We have not done that in the past, and we see no reason for that to be done in this case. As I said, we have not yet seen the details with regard to the building regulations and the depot in Annandale. Those details need to be forthcoming in order for us to reach a clear view on that, but Kevin Gibson might be able to provide more detail.

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee

Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 24 May 2022

Jenny Gilruth

I would like it to be settled today, convener. However, as you will be aware, ASLEF is in dispute with ScotRail, the employer, at this time. We need to get to a resolution and I am committed to working with both parties to ensure that we get to a restoration of the previous timetable. However, that depends on both sides coming to a compromise in order to reach a settlement that will meet the needs of all passengers.

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee

Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 24 May 2022

Jenny Gilruth

Yes.

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee

High Speed Rail (Crewe-Manchester) Bill

Meeting date: 24 May 2022

Jenny Gilruth

The approach that has been taken to similar projects authorised by acts of Parliament has been that building standards and the CAR requirements continue to apply. As I mentioned in my response to Mr Ruskell, both the Waverley Railway (Scotland) Act 2006 and the Forth Crossing Act 2011 conferred broad powers on the promoter to construct the works but did not disapply CAR or building standards requirements. Given those precedents, we are not currently in a position to recommend that Parliament consents to the disapplication of those regulatory requirements in Scotland.

However, the hybrid bill process in the UK Parliament is a lengthy one, as I have mentioned in response to other committee members. Therefore, we are continuing to discuss those issues with the UK Government, and I am happy to keep the committee updated on the progress of those discussions.

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee

High Speed Rail (Crewe-Manchester) Bill

Meeting date: 24 May 2022

Jenny Gilruth

I might bring in Kevin Gibson on the technicalities, but I should say that the bill is a hybrid bill, so there is time left in 2022, and potentially into 2023, to resolve some of the issues. As Mr Kerr has outlined, we are in agreement with the UK Government on a number of the clauses that require the legislative consent of the Scottish Parliament, but the Scottish Government has identified nine relevant clauses in total, in addition to those on which the UK Government has asked the Scottish Parliament for legislative consent.

My officials, supported by legal advice, met the UK Government team to discuss that point after the bill was presented, and the view of the Scottish Government is that the Scottish schedules in the nine clauses that I have mentioned relate to matters that would alter devolved legislative controls and that have a devolved purpose. For example, they might affect the water environment, building standards or planning. In line with section 28(8) of the Scotland Act 1998 and devolution guidance note 10, the Scottish Government’s view is that those clauses require the Scottish Parliament’s consent. Many of the clauses relate to land-use planning. Planning permission is required, and the development of land is regulated for planning purposes, regardless of the nature of the underlying project.

In summary, both Governments have different interpretations of the Sewel convention. The practical implications of the bill are not yet clear. However, as I mentioned, we are working through those issues. This is a hybrid bill so, over the coming months, and potentially into 2023, officials will be working very closely to try to get to a resolution on some of the issues. We support the overall purpose of the bill, but we have reservations about some of the specifics, as I have outlined.

Kevin Gibson, would you like to say more?

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee

High Speed Rail (Crewe-Manchester) Bill

Meeting date: 24 May 2022

Jenny Gilruth

Although it might be normal practice in England to disapply environmental regulations for major construction projects, that is not the policy in Scotland, as Mr Ruskell knows. The Scottish Government’s position is that anything that could impact on the water environment must be authorised by the Scottish Environment Protection Agency and carried out in such a way as to protect our water environment to the extent that is reasonable. In other Scottish infrastructure projects, the controlled activities regulations requirements have not been disapplied. For example, the Waverley Railway (Scotland) Act 2006 and the Forth Crossing Act 2011 were hybrid bills, passed by the Scottish Parliament, that gave the Government the powers to construct the Borders railway and the Queensferry crossing respectively.

The overarching aim of the Building (Scotland) Act 2003 and building regulations is to secure the health, safety and welfare of building occupants. Therefore, further details about the depot are needed to evaluate how the proposals would impact on the building standards that would normally apply. Again, that will be discussed in detail by the relevant teams, and a new position will be reached with the relevant ministers, including, in this instance, my colleague Patrick Harvie, given his responsibilities in that area.

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee

Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 24 May 2022

Jenny Gilruth

Yes, that is correct.

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee

Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 24 May 2022

Jenny Gilruth

No. I agree with the sentiment of Ms Lennon’s question. No worker should feel under pressure to work on their rest days. However, I go back to my initial point to the convener: rest-day working is not something that suddenly occurred as of 1 April 2022. It has existed for a number of years, and it is how trains right across Great Britain, not just in Scotland, operate. The service depends on drivers volunteering to work on their rest days. On whether it should be phased out, it is a historic practice and I am perfectly committed to working with the trade unions to have those discussions in future, as we move forward. However, that practice has historically been part of how train drivers work and operate. Bill Reeve will correct me if I am wrong, but I think that drivers are compensated for working on their rest days.

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee

High Speed Rail (Crewe-Manchester) Bill

Meeting date: 24 May 2022

Jenny Gilruth

I will be brief, convener. The Scottish Government has consistently supported high-speed rail, but not just to Birmingham, Manchester and Leeds. To realise its full benefit, high-speed rail infrastructure needs to be extended further and faster to reach Scotland. Notwithstanding that, we welcome the proposal to locate one of the HS2 train stabling and light maintenance depots in Annandale, near Gretna, and the highly skilled jobs that doing so should create. Scotland will also benefit immediately from faster train services upon completion of phase 1 of the HS infrastructure.

Although our position is one of support for the bill overall, and for the depot, it is right that we take the time required to scrutinise the implications of legislative consent. That is why the Cabinet Secretary for Net Zero, Energy and Transport, Michael Matheson, recommended that the Scottish Parliament consent only to some clauses in the bill while we work through the other issues with our UK Government counterparts. Along with my officials, I will be happy to cover the detail of those clauses in answering the committee’s questions.

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee

Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 24 May 2022

Jenny Gilruth

We need a respectful tone in that dialogue as well.