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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 14 August 2025
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Displaying 1071 contributions

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Education, Children and Young People Committee

Additional Support for Learning Inquiry

Meeting date: 20 March 2024

Jenny Gilruth

I can write to the committee, setting out a timescale in which we will strengthen the code of practice and setting out our actions—of course, that is part of the review update. If the committee is minded that legislative changes are required, I will consider that with officials.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Additional Support for Learning Inquiry

Meeting date: 20 March 2024

Jenny Gilruth

The reality is that education is co-ordinating those services right now. That is certainly my experience of having been in school not that long ago, when it was—absolutely—education that co-ordinated those services. That can be really challenging for those who work in education, who are dealing with lots of other things in the day-to-day running of a school.

Should that be a task for education? No, that should be a shared and joint endeavour. Some of the Audit Scotland evidence that I alluded to at the start of the meeting is about having a funding approach that would bring partners together. We have quite a disparate approach to that now. Education is often leading the charge because education has the young person in school and is trying to build support around the young person and bring partners to the table. I know that that can be really challenging.

It is not clear that the responsibility should rest solely with education. I think that it should be a joint endeavour, particularly along with health, given the number of health professionals who are involved in providing support to young people with some of the most challenging additional support needs. We need a wraparound system that does not lean on schools to the extent that they are burdened not only with pulling together services but with giving front-line provision. If I may say so as a—granted, former—teacher, I think that that pressure is often felt more by education than by other services.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Additional Support for Learning Inquiry

Meeting date: 20 March 2024

Jenny Gilruth

I do not think so. In terms of what we have heard today about the role of specialist staff, I have made it clear that I see a key role for them in providing support to the profession. The member’s points are really important, because resourcing that is challenging. I have given examples of ring fencing. The member may have other ideas, but I think that, if we take a step back from where we are now, this is about service delivery and about how the whole system, not just schools, responds to a post-pandemic world and delivers education.

I do not think that our approach is working right now, which is why public sector reform gives us an opportunity to tie budget lines together, to ensure that education is not mopping up what should be a joint endeavour and to have more partnership working. This is absolutely not about pushing things on to classroom teachers.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Additional Support for Learning Inquiry

Meeting date: 20 March 2024

Jenny Gilruth

Thank you for suggesting the human rights legislation as a vehicle for updating the 2004 act. That will be a matter for members to consider.

On your substantive question, the ASL action plan is coming in the next few weeks. In discussion with officials ahead of this meeting, I was mindful that the committee will probably produce its report in the next few weeks. I want to ensure—because it is important—that the plan update listens to the outcomes of the committee’s inquiry. Therefore, the timescales associated with that are to some extent in the committee’s gift.

We previously published an action plan update last year. The commitment to deliver the entirety of the action plan will be achieved by March 2026. However, there has been an update every 18 months since the action plan was committed to. Mr Macpherson asked about quarterly updates. Updates have not been quite as regular as quarterly, but I can speak to officials about what we can do to fill the gap between the next update and the 2026 final plan.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Additional Support for Learning Inquiry

Meeting date: 20 March 2024

Jenny Gilruth

I look forward to it.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Budget Scrutiny 2024-25 and Education Reform

Meeting date: 17 January 2024

Jenny Gilruth

I am not sighted on the specifics of the City of Edinburgh Council. I think that the committee took evidence from Peter Bain of School Leaders Scotland on that, and SLS has previously raised with me the devolved school management challenge. I will take a look at the specifics in relation to the City of Edinburgh Council. The convener and I are having a meeting on a separate issue so, in that meeting, we could perhaps update her on any engagement that officials have had with Edinburgh council.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Budget Scrutiny 2024-25 and Education Reform

Meeting date: 17 January 2024

Jenny Gilruth

I should say that that is not my local paper.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Budget Scrutiny 2024-25 and Education Reform

Meeting date: 17 January 2024

Jenny Gilruth

I thank Mr Kidd for his question, which raises an important point. We have a new deal with local government through the Verity house agreement arrangements. As the committee will be aware, some of the budget settlement looks to remove a level of ring fencing. There are two budget lines from which we remove ring fencing, and they are already baselined into the grant for local government. They will be contained within that but come from my budget. Additional lines come from me directly, which are more ring fenced, although they are quite a small proportion—around 5 per cent overall. Therefore, other than that 5 per cent, local authorities have some flexibility in relation to how they spend.

Through the Verity house agreement, I was keen to establish a quality assurance framework between us and local authorities. We have been working on that since this summer. In August, we began engagements with COSLA. I meet COSLA very regularly—every two or three weeks—and I am keen that we deliver on a change in that relationship not just through Verity house but through accountability. I might argue that, as cabinet secretary, I am hyper-accountable to the committee, the chamber and the media, but education is delivered by local authorities, and they retain statutory responsibility for that.

When we look—as I do—at the performance in last year’s exam results, we see that there is variability in the system, and we need to tackle it with regard to outcomes. That is how we close the poverty-related attainment gap, and we need to drill into some of that. At Education Scotland, we have a team of attainment advisers—with whom the committee will be familiar—who support every local authority in trying to close the gap. Part of that work has been driven by local authorities identifying their stretch aims, which involves forward planning and saying, “In three years’ time, this is the progress that we will have made in closing the gap.” Education Scotland is involved in challenging and also supporting local authorities. That speaks to Mr Kidd’s question about improvement and delivery. We need to get into a better space that recognises that local authorities have responsibility for that.

As far as improvement is concerned, whether it is in behaviour, attendance or curriculum, local authorities have a real responsibility. Some of them take that extremely seriously and they have really good support mechanisms in place, such as quality improvement officers. I want to work with local authorities to support them to deliver that.

Part of the improvement will be supported by the appointment of the new chief inspector. I do not want to jump ahead, because we will talk about reform in the next session. The interim chief inspector has a key role to play in supporting local authorities with improvement and has powers to carry out their own inspections of local authority improvement mechanisms and how they work to support schools. I know that some people in the system say that that is a starting point for the new chief inspector. I am sure that she currently has her hands full with a few other things that I have sent her way, but I think that we should look at how central Government supports the improvement function at local authority level, because there are 32 different approaches to it around the country. Sometimes that difference is a strength of the Scottish education system, but sometimes we are not great at learning from other areas where there are pockets of good practice. That is where Education Scotland and the attainment advisers have a key role to play.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Budget Scrutiny 2024-25 and Education Reform

Meeting date: 17 January 2024

Jenny Gilruth

That is helpful, and it is correct to recognise that we are going back to the situation that existed prior to the pandemic. We should be mindful that the education system has been through a period of turmoil in relation to Covid. That additionality was built into the system, much in the same way that, post-pandemic, we have now gone back to holding examinations in schools. Things are different. When we try to baseline or measure things against the year that came prior to there being additional places in the system, I do not think that gives an accurate depiction, much like when we try to compare the attainment gap with that which existed last year or the year prior to that, because we had different arrangements in place for those years.

Ms Thomson is absolutely accurate and correct in her assessment that comparing those numbers with 2019 gives a better overall understanding of the progress that we are making in relation to student places.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Budget Scrutiny 2024-25 and Education Reform

Meeting date: 17 January 2024

Jenny Gilruth

I do not think that it is something that has happened since 2016.