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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 4 May 2025
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Displaying 950 contributions

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Education, Children and Young People Committee

Budget Scrutiny 2024-25 and Education Reform

Meeting date: 17 January 2024

Jenny Gilruth

I will respond formally to Professor Hayward’s consultation. There are parts of it that I think we will take forward, and there are parts of it that I will need to consider. The Hayward report would mark a substantive change in how we deliver qualifications in Scotland. It needs to be translated into an action plan for schools to implement, and it is not there yet.

To be fair to Professor Hayward, she talks about a 10-year plan and about setting out how we would map change. I am a modern studies teacher, however, so I am thinking, “How would I timetable that?” Those are the practical things that the Government needs to have an answer to in responding to her report, and we do not yet have those answers. I will respond to all the recommendations.

11:30  

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Budget Scrutiny 2024-25 and Education Reform

Meeting date: 17 January 2024

Jenny Gilruth

This brings me back to my initial response to Mr Kerr’s question about college places. A lot of this will not be known at this stage in the budget process. Currently, the SFC is working on allocations and translating what that will mean for the colleges sector. That is not an unusual situation; indeed, having probed this issue with officials prior to this meeting, I do not think that we would ever have had that level of detail at this point in the financial year. It has always been the case with the education budget and portfolio that we ask the SFC to look at translating those things.

However, I heard the comments from Shona Struthers and I recognise the challenge, particularly in relation to the points that Ruth Maguire made about financial sustainability and the wider forward look. I am happy to write to the committee with more detail when the SFC has decided and given me advice on those allocations, but we do not expect to have that detail at this point in the financial year.

10:00  

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Budget Scrutiny 2024-25 and Education Reform

Meeting date: 17 January 2024

Jenny Gilruth

No. I think that we will make progress in relation to that commitment this year, but delivering a reduction in class contact time will not happen overnight. It will take work from the SNCT, which has not been able to resolve the issue for years. Negotiation has been on-going since the last election, so there have been challenges for some time. We will work with the SNCT on delivery of the commitment. I do not yet have the evidence base to give a full answer. I am happy to include that in my written update to the committee, because I expect the evidence to give me numbers about additional budget in relation to delivery of the commitment. Is that a good answer?

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Budget Scrutiny 2024-25 and Education Reform

Meeting date: 17 January 2024

Jenny Gilruth

Pardon?

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Budget Scrutiny 2024-25 and Education Reform

Meeting date: 17 January 2024

Jenny Gilruth

There is additionality in the budget of £16 million to increase pay in the PVI sector.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Budget Scrutiny 2024-25 and Education Reform

Meeting date: 17 January 2024

Jenny Gilruth

I do not agree.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Budget Scrutiny 2024-25 and Education Reform

Meeting date: 17 January 2024

Jenny Gilruth

Mr Kidd’s question is in a similar space to Mr Greer’s question about savings that were made during the current financial year and the detail of those specific programmes. I can include that in the written update to the committee if that helps.

The member quoted £23.5 million. I have the savings in front of me and I am not sure where he gets that number from, although I suspect that it is from the lifelong learning and skills budget line, perhaps with an addition from elsewhere. If the member is able to clarify that, perhaps after the meeting, I would be more than happy to include that detail in my written update, which will also cover the points made by the convener and Mr Greer.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Budget Scrutiny 2024-25 and Education Reform

Meeting date: 17 January 2024

Jenny Gilruth

Why did it happen? Why did the poverty-related attainment gap—

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Budget Scrutiny 2024-25 and Education Reform

Meeting date: 17 January 2024

Jenny Gilruth

I might defer to Sam Anson in relation to the pupil teacher ratio. However, I am also concerned about the fact that some councils are choosing not to use the additional £145 million that the Government has provided to protect teacher numbers.

The point about the PTR is part of the answer, but it is not the whole answer. If the additionality that central Government has given local councils to pay for teachers has not been used for teachers, the question has to be what it has been used for and why it—

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Budget Scrutiny 2024-25 and Education Reform

Meeting date: 17 January 2024

Jenny Gilruth

I cannot give Mr Greer a specific answer in relation to local authorities masking their school meals debt—I do not think that it would be wise for me to do so—but I take the point. The issue is one that Aberlour and others have made suggestions on, and I know that Mr Greer has previously done work on it.

We will administer the fund such that local authorities will have to apply, but they will also have to provide us with an evidence base in relation to the debt, so we will look at the granularity when it comes to claims about school meals debt.

However, I say to Mr Greer—as I think I said to Ms Duncan-Glancy on breakfasts—that local authorities already have the power to wipe out school meals debt. Many of them have done that and, again, I praise them for that action.