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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 9 August 2025
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Displaying 1071 contributions

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Education, Children and Young People Committee [Draft]

Education (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 9 October 2024

Jenny Gilruth

I do not think that my expectation is that they would sit as members. It goes back to the point that Mr Mason made about the role of qualifications Scotland staff being largely administrative, responding to challenge and listening to and understanding the views of members. If Mr Greer’s view is that we need to stipulate that in primary legislation, we can look at that. That feels quite specific, but I take the point that he is making.

When we are talking about the credibility of the organisation, we need to be mindful that the structures have to introduce a level of challenge that has arguably been lacking in recent times. I do not want to see them stacked with the staff who work in that organisation. That is not the purpose of those structures. They are there to provide a different view and a different role, and to provide challenge.

I am not sure whether we would stipulate that in the primary legislation, but there might be something that we could do around guidance. I might defer to officials on that point. Again, I am pretty sympathetic to Mr Greer’s point.

Education, Children and Young People Committee [Draft]

Education (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 9 October 2024

Jenny Gilruth

Absolutely. I take Mr Greer’s point that the 49 per cent suggestion would fly in the face of the purpose of the legislation.

Education, Children and Young People Committee [Draft]

Education (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 9 October 2024

Jenny Gilruth

Which stakeholders would Mr Greer envisage that we should stipulate? I hear him saying that we should not stipulate, but there are many broader stakeholders in Scottish education. I do not want to close the door to that wider engagement, but we need to be careful that we are not being overly specific about some of this.

Education, Children and Young People Committee [Draft]

Education (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 9 October 2024

Jenny Gilruth

I will bring in Jaxon on that point.

Education, Children and Young People Committee [Draft]

Education (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 9 October 2024

Jenny Gilruth

The member makes a fair point, so we will take that away and reflect on how we could strengthen the approach, although I would be worried about specifying. We will look again at how we can strengthen some of the wording around our expectations on consultation so that it is meaningful.

Education, Children and Young People Committee [Draft]

Education (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 9 October 2024

Jenny Gilruth

Part of that is for the Government, but it is partly about co-creation, too. The approach that we are taking is not about the Government dictating things, but about our stakeholders saying, “This is how ambitious we want to be, and this is where we want to go.” There was a lot of support for the charters in the consultation, particularly around the role of children and young people, but some concerns were raised about their potentially becoming a token gesture, and we might come on to talk about that.

We must have better transparency; that is the real purpose of the charters, and it is something that has probably been a challenge for the organisation in recent history. Therefore, the charters have to be co-designed with the groups whom they are intended to serve, and I think that that will answer the call for ambition, as all user groups need to be content with the co-design approach. It is not me, as cabinet secretary, who will decide the level of ambition—I think that that would be quite wrong. Instead, it is for those groups to come together and set their own aspirations. I imagine that they will be very ambitious, and we will have to respond to that.

Education, Children and Young People Committee [Draft]

Education (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 9 October 2024

Jenny Gilruth

No, not necessarily. I go back to the point that I made to the member at the start of this evidence session: if there are specific parts of the bill that the member thinks are deficient in some way, I am happy to work with her on looking at how we can strengthen them.

I have to come back to my original point, though, which is that the status quo is not working. We have to get this right. We have to reform the qualifications body, because I cannot deliver on the aspirations of Professor Hayward’s review unless we do this work. The body has to listen to the views of teachers and young people. It has not been able to fulfil those expectations in recent history, so how we reform and change it is really important.

Look, I am a politician, and I am quite sure that we will all disagree on parts of the bill, but there will also be areas on which we can make progress. However, if the member thinks that this area needs strengthening, I will be happy to hear any of her views further to that.

10:30  

Education, Children and Young People Committee [Draft]

Education (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 9 October 2024

Jenny Gilruth

The member makes what sounds like a reasonable point. Again, I will defer to my officials.

Education, Children and Young People Committee [Draft]

Education (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 9 October 2024

Jenny Gilruth

Yes.

Education, Children and Young People Committee [Draft]

Education (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 9 October 2024

Jenny Gilruth

The solution to that, as proposed in the Muir report, is the shared inspection framework, which has been developed with HMI and the Care Inspectorate. Ms Don-Innes and I met HMI and the Care Inspectorate recently to discuss that, and that work is being taken forward.

You make an important point, convener. We are not doubling the workload here; instead, this is a shared approach to the inspection of early learning and childcare, which is unlike other parts of our education system. That is exactly why the Care Inspectorate sits alongside HMI in that respect. That work is being taken forward, and I am happy to write to the committee with further detail if that would be helpful.