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Mr Greer raises an important point on the timetabling of qualifications and the hours associated with those qualifications. I raised the same point with the SQA some years ago, when I was sitting on that side of the table along with Mr Greer and Ms Smith. Mr Greer is absolutely right to raise points about the SQA and Education Scotland not having good working relationships in delivering those qualifications. However, part of the challenge is how we have teachers embedded in those organisations.

During discussions on the first group of amendments, I spoke about some of the work that I have introduced in relation to the schools unit in Education Scotland. We have a headteacher in there who has been seconded out of school and who will be in charge of leading that qualifications work. It is hugely important to have qualified teachers on the ground informing what we are doing in all aspects of qualifications reform. That is also why we have headteachers working to lead the curriculum improvement cycle, which is also relevant here.

I hear the arguments being put. I also know that the background to the bill is the lack of trust in the qualifications body among the teaching profession and parents, carers and young people who have come through the system. It is about rebuilding trust. Some of the changes that we have introduced in relation to the schools unit and to working differently with our teachers on curriculum improvement address some of that.

Putting that wording into the legislation is perhaps overly prescriptive. I am not necessarily sure that it is required at this time, although I am listening to the arguments.

I have said that I am happy to have that discussion with Ms Duncan-Glancy ahead of stage 3, although it is fair to say that the way in which the amendments are drafted, particularly in relation to Education Scotland, is going to be problematic, because it does not have its own legal personality separate from that of the Scottish ministers. We need to be careful, because Education Scotland is not established in statute. The way that the amendment is drafted would not have the effect that Ms Duncan-Glancy desires, although I am supportive of the requirement in principle.

Amendment 233 would require qualifications Scotland to work with others, as opposed to the bill’s current reference to

“the desirability of working ... with others”.

The amendment goes further than is necessary and weakens qualifications Scotland’s ability to make judgments about who it should work with. I think that the existing wording of the bill would still achieve what Ms Duncan-Glancy wants. I understand the point behind amendment 233, although I do not support the amendment itself. There are amendments in groups 8 and 10 that I do support and that will go some way towards assuring the member that qualifications Scotland will work effectively with others in the system—for example, the amendments that would require qualifications Scotland to have regard to other public bodies throughout the Scottish education and skills system, such as Education Scotland, Skills Development Scotland, the Scottish Funding Council and the SCQF Partnership. I hope that I have given Ms Duncan-Glancy a level of reassurance and that I have persuaded her to reconsider moving amendment 233.

I thank Ms Duncan-Glancy for her amendments on qualifications Scotland’s responsibilities to work with others, and I agree that it is an important matter for us to consider. Amendment 232 specifies that qualifications Scotland must work in collaboration with Education Scotland. That fully aligns with my intention for increased consultation and I support the intention behind the amendment. However, Education Scotland is an executive agency of the Scottish ministers and statutory functions should not be conferred on such agencies, because they do not have their own legal personality separate from that of the Scottish ministers. In legal terms, there is, strictly speaking, no basis on which the duty would operate.

Similarly, I note that amendment 243 seeks a reciprocal arrangement for Education Scotland to work with qualifications Scotland, although the requirements are slightly uneven because a more qualified duty would be imposed on Education Scotland. For the same reasons, I support the principle behind amendment 243, but it will need to be reworked. I will be happy to work with Ms Duncan-Glancy to adjust those amendments for stage 3 and I ask that she does not press or move those amendments.

The regulations have not yet been brought forward, and I am keen to work with members to ensure agreement on what they specify.

On the other part of the question, we have talked about the parliamentary scrutiny of qualifications Scotland, and we will, additionally, talk about that in greater detail in later groups.

I am listening to Mr Kerr develop his point. He talks about greater clarity, but the SCQF provides that clarity at a national level, encompassing all qualifications. He is seeking to duplicate—I think that that is the point that Mr Adam was making—by having another framework embedded, as I understand it, within qualifications Scotland, and that would create more confusion. Does Mr Kerr agree that more challenge in how qualifications are interpreted will be created by duplicating something that already exists?

Will the member take an intervention?

They are defined as protected characteristics in the Equality Act 2010, but the advice that I have is that, because the age difference is not prescribed, that will not apply in the way that I think that the member intends. I recognise that more reassurance is needed there, so perhaps we can work together to arrive at a resolution.

I also reassure members that qualifications Scotland will be a named organisation that will be subject to the public sector equality duty, which will require the organisation to have due regard to those types of equality considerations when carrying out its functions. Those considerations should be captured by that duty—to answer Ms Duncan-Glancy’s point.

I fully support prescribing British Sign Language users and those with additional support needs as groups who should be consulted. I therefore ask Ms Duncan-Glancy not to press her amendment, with a view to working with Government on whether more is needed or can be done to strengthen existing equality-focused provisions and duties for stage 3.

Amendments 257 and 269 from Ms Clark require the charters to include a list of support that qualifications Scotland will offer to children, young people and adult learners. From Ms Clark’s contribution, I understand that she is not going to move her amendments. We discussed some of the issues last week. As they are drafted, the amendments go against the purpose of the charters in two ways. First, the charters are not there to define a list of services that qualifications Scotland must provide; it is more about how it provides services. The second issue relates to co-production, which will ensure that the charters reflect the needs of those who they are designed to serve. By defining the content to be covered in legislation, we risk pre-empting the co-production process. Ms Clark has, however, raised some important points. I recognise that she is not going to move her amendments but I just wanted to put all that on the record.

Amendment 258 from Mr Whitfield sets out an interesting proposal for an independent person to prepare a draft of the learner charter. I have some concerns about whether such a move is necessary, particularly given the additional provisions for consultation, transparency and accountability within the bill, as well as the changes on co-production that I have committed to. Also, if the person requires to have the relevant skills, knowledge and expertise in relation to the functions of qualifications Scotland, that risks us having a pretty limited pool of candidates compared with the expertise that will be held by qualifications Scotland.

To answer Mr Greer’s point, the intention was always for co-production, and the bill will make that clear following the work that I will undertake with Mr Greer and Ms Duncan-Glancy. I will not therefore be able to support amendment 258.

I thank Mr Greer and Ms Duncan-Glancy for explaining the purposes of these amendments.

Mr Greer’s amendments 36 and 37 together call for the annual report of qualifications Scotland to include a summary of advice offered by its committees and any response given by qualifications Scotland. I support the principles behind them and their ability to ensure greater transparency; however, I would like to work with Mr Greer to refine them, because I think that the proposal might sit better as a separate requirement in the bill rather than something attached to the annual report. Such an approach will ensure the possibility of more routine publications of that type, instead of that information simply being embedded in one annual corporate governance document. If Mr Greer would like to work with me on that, I would ask him not to press or move his amendments, and we can adjust that for stage 3.

Ms Duncan-Glancy’s amendments 283 and 284 make an addition to the reporting requirements to include any advice provided by the strategic advisory council and the response provided by qualifications Scotland. I support that objective; indeed, it is our intention to include a provision to that effect in the regulations that establish the council.

However, for reasons similar to those that I outlined in relation to Mr Greer’s amendments, I do not think that the best place to publish that advice and qualifications Scotland’s response is in the annual report. I would be keen to consider that as a separate requirement, and my preference would be to set out that type of provision in the regulations that establish the council, as already enabled under section 9 of the bill.

That said, I understand the desire to prescribe this in the bill and, if Ms Duncan-Glancy is not assured that we will deal with that in the regulations, I would like to work with her on the amendment for stage 3.

I would argue that Education Scotland fulfils much of the recommendations that were contained in the Muir review. My refocusing of the organisation last year has certainly helped to drive some of that.

If we go back to the wording that was used in the Muir review, we see that the report recommended a national education agency, which was to be an executive agency, not an NDPB. There is no need for legislation in this space, arguably. That is the point that I was trying to make in my opening response.

More broadly, and as I noted in my response on Mr Kerr’s amendment 290, although curriculum review and improvement will still be the primary focus of Education Scotland, the remit of our national education agency needs to extend further than just the curriculum. Professor Ken Muir noted the need to simplify the complex landscape in Scotland, which Mr Briggs alluded to, and I think that inserting a new education body into that landscape would add an unnecessary layer of complexity in the system.

Refocusing the work of Education Scotland achieves the overall aims of Ms Duncan-Glancy’s amendments and ensures that we have a national body that is focused on curriculum and that is informed by teachers, children and young people, without the need for a new stand-alone body.

On that basis, I cannot support the amendments.

I thank Pam Duncan-Glancy and Ross Greer for explaining the purposes of their amendments. In general, many of those amendments align with the fundamental principles and values under which qualifications Scotland should operate.

A number of amendments would require qualifications Scotland to “have regard to” the advice and recommendations that may be given to it by Education Scotland, the Scottish Funding Council and Skills Development Scotland. Like the SQA, qualifications Scotland will have an inherent requirement to work effectively with those organisations to deliver in the interests of Scotland’s children and young people and adult learners. Although I do not necessarily believe that that needs to be prescribed in legislation, I recognise the level of reassurance that it would provide to the system to make it clear that the organisations that work in the same space will collaborate as appropriate.

A few points of drafting in relation to amendments 236 and 237 will need to be refined—including how we describe Education Scotland and SDS, to ensure that that works in legislation. I highlighted that point in the discussion on group 9.

I am also not quite sure that the language of “recommendations” is right when it comes to expressing the nature of that collaborative relationship. I am keen to work with Stephen Kerr and Pam Duncan-Glancy on those amendments ahead of stage 3, and I ask that they do not move them today. I also ask Ms Duncan-Glancy not to move amendment 239 but, instead, to work with us on amendment 236—if Mr Kerr is content with that, of course.

Amendments 55 and 56 place duties on qualifications Scotland to have regard to the needs of those who use British Sign Language in the context of learning, BSL-medium education, and those who teach with British Sign Language. I echo Ross Greer’s points in congratulating the BSL community—in particular, children and young people—for all its campaigning in that space.

Members will note that my amendment 54 adds an express reference to children and young people as a distinct user group whose needs and interests need to be taken account of by qualifications Scotland. The amendment recognises that, often, children and young people have different requirements from others who may use the services of qualifications Scotland.

Ross Greer has lodged amendment 4, which seeks to change the wording in the bill to require qualifications Scotland to “prioritise” rather than “have regard to” the needs and interests of those who use its services. Although I understand the intention behind that amendment, I am concerned about the expectations that we would set through the use of the word “prioritise”. Qualifications Scotland will of course need to have regard to its service users as a high priority.

I reassure Mr Greer that, as I said in the evidence session last week, I agree that it is important that qualifications Scotland prioritises services for children, young people and adult learners. However, as a public body that operates in an education and skills ecosystem, it also needs to have as a priority, when essential, other public bodies duties that might, from time to time, conflict with the priorities of service users. Learners will also have conflicting ideas about what they would prioritise, so it will be challenging to prioritise all of them. For example, candidates undertaking qualifications might want certain topics or assessment methods to be prioritised, and that might differ from the needs of employers or the higher and further education sector.

It is essential that qualifications Scotland, with the support of its new governance arrangements, is able to make such judgment calls. By including the word “prioritise”, we are potentially setting the organisation up for challenge when certain priorities of different groups have not been met, despite there being reasonable and valid reasons for that.

To that end, I emphasise that the term “have regard to” is not without impact. It requires qualifications Scotland to fully consider the needs and interests of everyone who use its services and ensure that they have been factored into its decisions and the delivery of its functions. Given those assurances, I ask Mr Greer not to move amendment 4.