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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 15 June 2025
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Displaying 783 contributions

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Economy and Fair Work Committee [Draft]

Skills Delivery

Meeting date: 30 April 2025

Daniel Johnson

One of the things that I have said directly to the minister and to James Withers is that we are putting structure ahead of function and outcome. Is that a fair assessment?

Economy and Fair Work Committee [Draft]

Skills Delivery

Meeting date: 30 April 2025

Daniel Johnson

My second proposition probably brings us a bit more into this space. Having reflected on the evidence that we have taken, I wonder whether we need to almost flip some of the priorities on their head. Instead of, say, asking for more consideration to be given to the matter, we need to challenge every aspect of the education system to demonstrate what it is delivering on skills. It is not good enough for universities to turn around and say, “Your skills requirements are not our business.” We need to be challenging primary, secondary and all tertiary education and asking, “How are you contributing to skills outcomes?”

Economy and Fair Work Committee [Draft]

Skills Delivery

Meeting date: 30 April 2025

Daniel Johnson

Just finally, Paul, what are your top three or four things, to hit your Pareto point?

Economy and Fair Work Committee [Draft]

Skills Delivery

Meeting date: 30 April 2025

Daniel Johnson

I am going to come back and ask you what you think those things are, because I feel that you want to get them off your chest.

First, though, I will put my last proposition to you. We have heard quite a lot about the balance between the big employers and the SMEs. The big employers are overwhelmed with applicants, while SMEs struggle, sometimes, to engage with the system. Do we need more of a sectoral approach? I know, Paul Sheerin, that there have been some moves in that direction in advanced manufacturing, and likewise in construction, where we have long-standing collaborative bodies. Do we need more sectoral approaches to bring balance and help firms of different sizes engage with the system more effectively?

Economy and Fair Work Committee [Draft]

Skills Delivery

Meeting date: 30 April 2025

Daniel Johnson

Just for clarity, are you arguing that we should be diverting money from other post-school education destinations—that is, university and colleges—towards the skills system?

Economy and Fair Work Committee [Draft]

Skills Delivery

Meeting date: 30 April 2025

Daniel Johnson

Now that we are at the end of our evidence taking, I have, instead of questions, one or two propositions that I would like to put to the panel, just to reflect my thoughts. I will ask just one of you to volunteer a response because, otherwise, I will not have enough time to get through them.

My first proposition—and reflection—is that we treat apprenticeships and skills as a bit of a monolith, when they are not, and I think that there is one particular element on which that view is taken. The fact is that apprentices do not end up with just one qualification; an apprenticeship is actually a method of learning. Does the panel agree with the proposition that we need greater clarity on the qualifications that people actually end up with, instead of just treating the apprenticeship as the thing in itself? Is the Scottish vocational qualification that people end up with at degree level? What about the qualifications in between? Do we need to be a little bit more refined in our understanding of what qualifications apprenticeships deliver?

Paul Campbell, everyone has stepped back and you seem to be left standing.

Economy and Fair Work Committee [Draft]

Skills Delivery

Meeting date: 30 April 2025

Daniel Johnson

Thank you. I would just like to pitch a slightly different question. Paul Campbell, you are here representing SAAB, which has essentially been scrapped. Has it been articulated to you what SAAB was not doing, or why it was not working, and therefore why it has been scrapped?

Economy and Fair Work Committee [Draft]

Skills Delivery

Meeting date: 30 April 2025

Daniel Johnson

Paul Campbell, I am going to come to you last, because I think that you will need to declare an interest in answering this question.

Sandy, can I pitch the same question to you? Given the importance of financial services, do you have clarity on where the inputs will be for industry? Do you think that there is sufficient interface with industry in the proposed structures?

Economy and Fair Work Committee [Draft]

Skills Delivery

Meeting date: 30 April 2025

Daniel Johnson

The renewables sector is probably facing the biggest change and needs the biggest increase in skills. Does Scottish Renewables have any clarity on where the industry voice will exist in the proposed new system?

10:45  

Economy and Fair Work Committee [Draft]

Skills Delivery

Meeting date: 23 April 2025

Daniel Johnson

I think that this has been covered, in a sense, but I am interested in this gap that has been mentioned. Is one of the issues that a foundation apprenticeship is a bit of a commitment and work experience is no commitment at all? Do we need to have something in between? Do we need a bit more structure to work experience—say, a degree of certification—while at the same time ensuring that we do not necessarily have something that involves the same commitment as a full-time course that lasts the whole of an academic year? Is that what we are vaguely reaching towards in this discussion? In Manchester, for example, they have skills boot camps. Could we be looking at those kinds of more structured but shorter-term models and opportunities for young people?