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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 19 January 2026
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Displaying 1332 contributions

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Finance and Public Administration Committee

Budget Scrutiny 2022-23

Meeting date: 7 December 2021

Daniel Johnson

If you had both come up with exactly the same answer we would be asking much tougher questions.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Budget Scrutiny 2022-23

Meeting date: 7 December 2021

Daniel Johnson

If I remember the election period correctly, the IFS was very fair in that it was equally withering about all the manifestos, which was good of you.

In the previous evidence session, we were looking specifically at the nature of the rise in income tax receipts, noting that Scotland was not seeing such big increases and that we were seeing big differentials between sectors, which brings challenges. Is there sufficient public policy focus on how we plug gaps in particular labour markets or address those differentials? That seems to be a new challenge, and one that is more challenging because of Brexit, but it does not seem to be getting the focus in terms of public policy that it deserves, north or south of the border.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Public Service Reform and Christie Commission

Meeting date: 30 November 2021

Daniel Johnson

Deputy First Minister, you have always struck me as someone who is frustrated with the pace of change. In your opening remarks, I think that you were hinting at something when you said that we should reflect on the fact that many of the things in Christie had not become as embedded, either institutionally or in policy terms, as we would have liked. Let me be expansive and ask you this question: if the 2007 John Swinney were able to travel here from the past, would he be pleased with what has happened or would he be frustrated with the lack of institutional change? Equally, if the 2021 John Swinney could provide that John Swinney with advice, what would it be?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Public Service Reform and Christie Commission

Meeting date: 30 November 2021

Daniel Johnson

I know that the convener wants to come in, but I have one more question.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Public Service Reform and Christie Commission

Meeting date: 30 November 2021

Daniel Johnson

I am tempted to ask you the same question in private and see what response I get.

I recognise your point that compartmentalisation is an issue, and part of it is about putting the right levers in the right places and ensuring that things are not split up. With that in mind, do we need a more fundamental reappraisal of what is under the control of local government? Douglas Lumsden alluded to the local governance review, which is about how local government engages with people and makes decisions, rather than what it actually does. You gave the example of the library, the sports centre, the primary school and the health centre all being in one place, and one of the best ways to make such things happen more often is to make sure that the decisions are all made in one place, rather than being split apart.

In line with my previous question, I will ask my next question in a slightly more impudent way. Why do we treat Douglas Lumsden’s and Liz Smith’s colleagues from 1994 with such respect and assume that Mr Lang’s local government reforms were perfectly formed and should remain unaltered by your Government—or, frankly, by the Labour Government? Should we not be asking much more fundamental questions? Is the solution not to push as much decision making as possible down to the local level and to give local government the powers that it needs to make those decisions properly?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Public Service Reform and Christie Commission

Meeting date: 30 November 2021

Daniel Johnson

I should have asked a bridging question, because there is an interesting point about the natural level in areas such as education and health, and whether it is the same.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Public Service Reform and Christie Commission

Meeting date: 30 November 2021

Daniel Johnson

Okay. I will challenge you on one point, Deputy First Minister. In response to Liz Smith—and you alluded to a similar point in your response to Ross Greer—you spoke about whether being accountable to ministers was a sufficient level of accountability for organisations, whether they are health boards or NDPBs. I would challenge you on whether accountability to ministers is the same as public accountability. With public accountability, there is an intermediary. We can hold ministers to account in Parliament, but we cannot hold health boards directly accountable. There is a difference there, and in some ways that is a frustration in our democracy.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Public Service Reform and Christie Commission

Meeting date: 9 November 2021

Daniel Johnson

The Christie report mentions technology only three times, and not really in the context of change itself. Was there a lack of focus on technology? Is technology a source of potential change for the better in public services?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 9 November 2021

Daniel Johnson

We are all aware of the acute pressure that the health service is under. Are contingencies in place for the coming months? We can expect to see an increase in demand, especially in areas such as accident and emergency.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Public Service Reform and Christie Commission

Meeting date: 9 November 2021

Daniel Johnson

Before I bring in the other witnesses, I wonder whether they will also respond to Professor Mitchell’s point about generalism being a useful thing in the civil service. Indeed, that is one of the stand-out bits of the Fulton report. Do you think that that is correct? Would having more specialists not, at the very least, help to drive change? In any case, how do you respond to the wider point that we need people in the civil service who are more focused on change?