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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 7 March 2026
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Displaying 819 contributions

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Education, Children and Young People Committee

Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 3 May 2023

Ruth Maguire

I do not want to interrupt. I just feel that it is quite an important point. I appreciate that you are newer to the bill.

The evidence that we have heard is that there is concern that it is a move to a subjective test rather than having the objective safeguard of reasonableness in there.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 3 May 2023

Ruth Maguire

Good morning, minister. As you say, the bill is about advancing children’s rights, and I would like to cover some areas where concerns have been raised in that regard. On compulsory supervision orders, concerns have been raised with us that the imposition of movement restriction conditions could amount to the deprivation of liberty of a child or young person, without legal safeguards. Have you considered whether more needs to be done with regard to access to legal representation for young people?

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 3 May 2023

Ruth Maguire

Forgive me, minister, but the change that I am asking about is a move from something that has a—I am losing my words now. Give me a second.

The change to a consideration of psychological harm is a subjective test. There was perhaps some objectivity in relation to “reasonable person”. I might be getting that wrong; if I am, forgive me. That is the specific change that I am looking for your reflections on.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 3 May 2023

Ruth Maguire

Okay. Thank you.

The other change relates to criteria and a move to a consideration of what is described as psychological “harm”, which is a pretty subjective test—actually, it is a subjective test, not a “pretty subjective” test.

What consideration has been given to that in relation to children’s rights, and what specific safeguards would you put in place to ensure that MRCs are used only in the appropriate circumstances?

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 3 May 2023

Ruth Maguire

You rightly highlighted in your statement the intensive support that accompanies MRCs. Can you give assurances that there will be intensive support whenever an MRC is imposed? Can you also talk a little about the additional resources that will be required to do that?

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 3 May 2023

Ruth Maguire

For clarity, the specific concern was around an MRC being decoupled from secure care such that the support package would not go with it. Are you being absolutely clear that there will be a package of support for a child who has an MRC?

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 3 May 2023

Ruth Maguire

Yes.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 3 May 2023

Ruth Maguire

You say that the bill builds on what is already there. I find it interesting that you have said that you feel that there is no change when, clearly, the bill widens the criteria. I am not necessarily disagreeing, but I think that it is important to be very clear about any potential risks or benefits of broadening those criteria. It is not more of the same; it is different.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 3 May 2023

Ruth Maguire

That is helpful, thank you.

My final question is about the effectiveness of MRCs. The policy memorandum says that no evaluation of the effectiveness of MRCs has been carried out. How will their effectiveness be evaluated going forward?

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 26 April 2023

Ruth Maguire

I would like some clarification from Stephen Bermingham. You said that we could not tell a victim details of a compulsory supervision order, which I absolutely appreciate. You will all have real-life examples of where harm has been done and there is a victim. In terms of the victim’s safety planning, you said that there could be informal ways that children and their families might be able to understand—I will just say it bluntly—that they would be safe and they would not encounter the person who had harmed them in certain areas. Is that the sort of thing that you mean, whereby their victims could be partially informed without getting the details of the individuals? Does that make sense?