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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 12 July 2025
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Displaying 903 contributions

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Criminal Justice Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2023-24

Meeting date: 9 November 2022

Fulton MacGregor

Thank you.

Criminal Justice Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2023-24

Meeting date: 9 November 2022

Fulton MacGregor

The Government seems to be moving in that direction; we will scrutinise and vote on the bill as it comes through Parliament shortly. Has the flat cash settlement come too early for that bill’s operation, or is there a hope that it could, inevitably, reduce the budget, which is perhaps why there is a flat cash settlement for the Prison Service?

Criminal Justice Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2023-24

Meeting date: 9 November 2022

Fulton MacGregor

My question goes back to Katy Clark’s line of questioning a wee while ago about reform and how some upcoming reforms, which the committee will consider, could link into the budget process that we are here to talk about.

We will very soon be starting work on the Bail and Release from Custody (Scotland) Bill, which you will be aware of. It is intended that it will make a big impact on the prison population, although we will need to wait to see how it pans out. A bit later in this session, we will see the proposed criminal justice reform bill, which will be on a mixture of various things that have been talked about for a while, as Katy Clark said.

I do not want you to speak about those bills, as such, because they will go through the normal process, and work on the Bail and Release from Custody (Scotland) Bill will be starting soon. Have you any early thoughts—yours or thoughts from discussions with the Prison Service—about how those bills might impact on budgets, or is it too difficult to say, just now?

Criminal Justice Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2023-24

Meeting date: 9 November 2022

Fulton MacGregor

I was not sure whether you were going to bring me back in, convener, given that Wendy Sinclair-Gieben has already touched on this issue in response to earlier questions.

Throughout the pre-budget scrutiny process, I have been asking other panellists about the interplay with other agencies. I know that you have touched on this already, but if everyone—the Prison Service, the police, community justice and so on—gets a flat cash settlement, what impact will that have on the SPS budget?

Criminal Justice Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2023-24

Meeting date: 9 November 2022

Fulton MacGregor

When many of the projected cost implications relate to improvements to people’s working lives, it is difficult for us to be against them.

I, too, have heard that Kilmarnock prison is very well run. That is worth noting.

Criminal Justice Committee

Pre-Budget Scrutiny 2022-23

Meeting date: 2 November 2022

Fulton MacGregor

The final question that I want to ask is one that I asked the previous panel and the panels last week. It is about your interlinking with the other justice agencies. You heard this morning’s evidence, and I assume that you tuned into the police’s and the fire service’s evidence last week. You all seem to say very similar things; it is a very bleak picture, and there is no getting away from that. Have you thought about how a flat cash settlement will impact on the police, the courts service—from which we have heard this morning—the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service and other criminal justice agencies? How do you take that into account in your budget considerations?

Criminal Justice Committee

Pre-Budget Scrutiny 2022-23

Meeting date: 2 November 2022

Fulton MacGregor

You described that as a low-level example, but it is a really good one. In my days as a criminal justice social worker years ago, I would be down at the courts. Police officers were often there for the whole day and they would say, “This is the third time this month that I have done this.”

Criminal Justice Committee

Pre-Budget Scrutiny 2022-23

Meeting date: 2 November 2022

Fulton MacGregor

I understand the penalties argument, but on reputational damage, I think that the public knowing that we were talking about billions in taxpayers’ money would negate that argument. I accept it if the cost of coming out of such a contract will end up outweighing any benefit that might be achieved. I understand that.

Criminal Justice Committee

Pre-Budget Scrutiny 2022-23

Meeting date: 2 November 2022

Fulton MacGregor

Good morning and thanks very much for your evidence, so far.

My question is along the same lines as Pauline McNeill’s, and is about HMPs Addiewell and Kilmarnock, so a lot of it has been covered. I was looking back to 2016 and I found a question that I asked, to which the answer was that the private finance initiative payments on Addiewell were going to cost taxpayers nearly £1 billion. I assume—going back to your answer earlier—that the cost has gone up from that. It is an absolutely ridiculous amount.

Can you confirm that with RPI currently at 12.6 per cent you will be liable for something approaching 14 per cent of the cost of HMP Addiewell? On the back of what you said about HMP Kilmarnock, is it time, or are there plans afoot, to bring Addiewell back into the public sector, as well?

Criminal Justice Committee

Pre-Budget Scrutiny 2022-23

Meeting date: 2 November 2022

Fulton MacGregor

I had a supplementary to Pauline McNeill’s question, but it has partly been covered. I would still like to ask it, but I can come in later.