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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 15 September 2025
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Displaying 907 contributions

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Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 13 December 2023

Fulton MacGregor

Good morning to the panel.

I want to go back to something that Stuart Munro said in his previous answer. It is something that we have certainly heard before in taking evidence over the past number of weeks. He said that there is no difference in outcome between the not guilty and not proven verdicts. For the benefit of laypeople MSPs, if there is no difference, why do we need the extra verdict, considering that no other system has it?

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 13 December 2023

Fulton MacGregor

That brings me on to my second question. All three of you have talked about balance. Do you have a fear that, if the Parliament gets rid of the not proven verdict, either the number of wrongful convictions will increase or the opposite will occur and more people will walk free when they are actually guilty? You have talked a lot about the not proven verdict being needed for balance, but what would happen if the balance, as you are calling it, was taken away?

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 13 December 2023

Fulton MacGregor

You said that some of your American colleagues were shocked about our system and wondered how it achieves acquittals. I want to make a point about the Scottish jury research—I am trying to find the information so that I get the figures right—which I know that other colleagues want to ask about. According to the study, undertaken in 2019, when juries had two verdicts available to them, they returned three out of 32 convictions, and when they had three verdicts available to them, they returned four out of 32. Acquittal is very high, it would seem.

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 13 December 2023

Fulton MacGregor

Okay. Thank you for that. So that I do not feel the wrath of the convener, I will just give Stuart Murray an opportunity to answer my earlier question.

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 13 December 2023

Fulton MacGregor

That brings us back to Russell Findlay’s point that a lot of this lacks, for the reasons that you have outlined, research and data, and we are not able to understand what juries think. As Russell and others have said, the committee has, over the past few weeks, begun to feel the weight of the decisions that are being put on us now. These are significant changes, and one thing that we do not want to do is make things worse for people who use the justice system, particularly victims and witnesses.

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 6 December 2023

Fulton MacGregor

Yes, not guilty.

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 6 December 2023

Fulton MacGregor

I know that this will be hard to say definitively but, based on your experience of working with people in and around the courts, do you think that, if the verdict is removed, it will lead to a higher number of convictions for these sorts of offences?

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 6 December 2023

Fulton MacGregor

Good morning. I have a follow-up question to the convener’s line of questioning. Joe Duffy, as you said, the two verdicts mean virtually the same thing: not proven—

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Regulation of Legal Services (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 5 December 2023

Fulton MacGregor

Can you respond to arguments that we heard from the Law Society and others that the case has not been made for splitting regulators into category 1 and category 2, which will be subject to different requirements?

Is it okay to move on to that area, convener?

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Regulation of Legal Services (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 5 December 2023

Fulton MacGregor

Thanks. Convener, I have one final question.