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Seòmar agus comataidhean

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 6 August 2025
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Displaying 2114 contributions

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Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee

Land Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 18 February 2025

Mairi Gougeon

We have listened carefully to all the evidence. It might be helpful for me to set out a rationale for why we approached the threshold in the way that we did. In the consultation that we undertook for the bill, we consulted on having a 3,000 hectares threshold, largely because if the provisions applied to estates larger than around 3,000 hectares the bill would take in about 40 per cent of the land area in Scotland.

We are trying to get the balance right when considering the burden that we are putting on landholdings in relation to the land management plan, obligations for community engagement and associated costs. We are considering all the evidence that the committee has taken and we are looking at the recommendations made by the Land Commission. However, ultimately, we are trying to get the balance right so that we do not put a disproportionate burden on smaller landholdings.

I hope that that explanation of our approach is helpful. We are considering the evidence.

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee

Land Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 18 February 2025

Mairi Gougeon

I have set out the initial rationale for the threshold, but we are keen to take on board the evidence that the committee has heard, to think about whether the current level is suitable, and to hear whether the committee has any suggestions for alternatives. We want to balance all those considerations, including the impact on smaller landholders of some of the community engagement obligations. We are listening to the evidence that the committee has heard, because we want to ensure that there is transparency.

We have the land rights and responsibilities statement. Some landowners are doing very good things and are looking to engage and involve communities in the decisions that they take. However, that approach is not universal or widespread, which is why we want to introduce the land management plan obligations and community engagement provisions. I am open to views on what the thresholds for those might look like.

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee

Land Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 18 February 2025

Mairi Gougeon

Yes.

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee

Land Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 18 February 2025

Mairi Gougeon

There will be consultation on exactly what could be included. If the committee is of the view that amendments are needed to clarify that, we will consider that view. However, I come back to the point that we have tried to strike the right balance by ensuring that there is flexibility for different landholdings while setting out our overarching objectives in the primary legislation.

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee

Land Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 18 February 2025

Mairi Gougeon

Absolutely. I hope that the process of the land management plans encourages that greater dialogue to take place, so that those discussions are not happening in separate places, if that makes sense.

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee

Land Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 18 February 2025

Mairi Gougeon

The guidance that accompanies the bill will be important in setting that out. The process could be quite a daunting prospect for some, but some will already be doing such work. We want to make sure that people are engaging in best practice when they undertake consultation.

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee

Land Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 18 February 2025

Mairi Gougeon

Yes. Again, we are considering all that, at the moment. There is no set way forward, so we are working through the matter. We have heard the evidence and, of course, we want to address it, if possible.

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee

Land Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 18 February 2025

Mairi Gougeon

Again, the alternatives that were considered are set out in the policy memorandum to the bill. There were a number of considerations that we consulted on, but we feel that our proposals on pre-notification, increasing transparency and allowing further opportunities for communities to take ownership of land are key.

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee

Land Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 18 February 2025

Mairi Gougeon

First, I want to clearly set out that the transfer test is a public interest test. It does not use those exact two words, but that is what the transfer test is: it will ensure that we take the public interest into consideration when a land transfer involves more than 1,000 hectares. Various proposals emerged about where the test should fall, whether it could fall on the buyer and the different ways in which it could work. However, the transfer test has been introduced on the basis of the evidence that we have and our ability to implement it, because the only way that we can implement a public interest test is by doing a test at the point of transfer of land.

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee

Land Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 18 February 2025

Mairi Gougeon

We had to introduce the provisions in the way that we have to ensure that the transfer test will take place at that point. That is not to say that all the land that goes through the transfer test would necessarily be lotted. That might not always be the case—there is a whole process that is set out in the provisions of the bill. There could be a transfer of land at scale.

What we are providing through pre-notification is, first of all, a route for communities to enable that to happen. However, if land was to be transferred that had not been lotted and that was above the threshold, any new owner would be expected to undertake the requirements that we are looking at through the land management plan provisions and community engagement.