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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 9 November 2025
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Displaying 3464 contributions

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Public Audit Committee

Tackling Digital Exclusion

Meeting date: 31 October 2024

Richard Leonard

I am afraid that we have run out of time. I thank our witnesses Lesley Fraser, Geoff Huggins, Eilidh McLaughlin and Martyn Wallace for the evidence that they have given us and the response that they have given to the Audit Scotland and Accounts Commission report on tackling digital exclusion. We will consider our next steps but, for the time being, I thank them again.

I move this morning’s committee meeting into private session.

10:31 Meeting continued in private until 10:50.  

Public Audit Committee

Tackling Digital Exclusion

Meeting date: 31 October 2024

Richard Leonard

We are about to enter the final stretch of this morning’s evidence session. I want to get some clarification on something that came up in the evidence session that we had with the Auditor General and the Accounts Commission. It is on the issue of the blue badge, which is highlighted in the report as being almost emblematic of where there might be an issue around digital exclusion. In answer to a question that I put to the Auditor General, he said:

“It feels that there is a contradiction between the population that is likely to need to access that service and the mechanism through which they are required to do that by public services.”—[Official Report, Public Audit Committee, 5 September 2024; c 19.]

One of the three major pillars of the Verity house agreement is about person-centred public services. This is a kind of test of that, is it not? Martyn Wallace, do you want to come back on that?

Public Audit Committee

Tackling Digital Exclusion

Meeting date: 31 October 2024

Richard Leonard

Does that mean that you accept the criticism from the Auditor General that

“leadership ... has weakened ... and momentum has ... slowed”

since the Covid-19 pandemic?

Public Audit Committee

Tackling Digital Exclusion

Meeting date: 31 October 2024

Richard Leonard

Are you saying that you accept that finding or that you do not accept it?

Public Audit Committee

Tackling Digital Exclusion

Meeting date: 31 October 2024

Richard Leonard

So do you now have detailed actions? Have you designated who is responsible for them? Do you have timescales and monitoring arrangements?

Public Audit Committee

Tackling Digital Exclusion

Meeting date: 31 October 2024

Richard Leonard

Mr Huggins, you spoke earlier about “a major success story” but, on the subject of digital exclusion, I infer from what you said that you think that it is the ageing population that is digitally excluded and that, over time, that will diminish, as though you think that people are going to die off and the problem will go away. However, that is not what the report says, is it? It says that age is a factor—of course it is, and everybody understands that—but the introduction to the report says:

“Digital exclusion is strongly associated with poverty and people with certain protected characteristics.”

My question is for the director general. What is the Scottish Government’s position? Is it that you think that the problem will diminish over time because older people are going to die, or do you see that there is a real and present issue because of people’s impoverishment and protected characteristics, which will continue to exist and to be a challenge, and on which the Government needs to show some leadership?

Public Audit Committee

Tackling Digital Exclusion

Meeting date: 31 October 2024

Richard Leonard

Okay—thank you. I will bring in Colin Beattie next.

Public Audit Committee

Decision on Taking Business in Private

Meeting date: 31 October 2024

Richard Leonard

Good morning and welcome to the 26th meeting in 2024 of the Public Audit Committee. Our first agenda item is to consider whether to take items 3 and 4 in private. Is that agreed?

Members indicated agreement.

Public Audit Committee

Tackling Digital Exclusion

Meeting date: 31 October 2024

Richard Leonard

Our main item is a further consideration of the joint report by the Auditor General for Scotland and the Accounts Commission “Tackling digital exclusion”. I am pleased to welcome our witnesses: Lesley Fraser, director general corporate, Geoff Huggins, chief digital officer, and Eilidh McLaughlin, deputy director, digital ethics, inclusion and assurance—all at the Scottish Government; and Martyn Wallace, chief digital officer in the digital office for Scottish local government, Convention of Scottish Local Authorities.

There are no opening statements, so I will start the questions. I direct my first question to Lesley Fraser. Do you accept the findings and the recommendations in the Auditor General for Scotland and Accounts Commission report “Tackling digital exclusion”?

Public Audit Committee

Tackling Digital Exclusion

Meeting date: 31 October 2024

Richard Leonard

I turn to James Dornan, who—to prove that our technology is working—joins us online.