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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 2 August 2025
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Displaying 3298 contributions

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Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “NHS in Scotland 2023”

Meeting date: 20 June 2024

Richard Leonard

But is your cost estimate likely to break the £1 billion barrier?

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “NHS in Scotland 2023”

Meeting date: 20 June 2024

Richard Leonard

On that note, I will draw this morning’s session to a close. Caroline Lamb, I thank you for answering the questions that we have put to you. John Burns and Richard McCallum, I thank you, too, for your input.

There were a couple of areas that we did not quite get to, so we might write to you with some follow-up questions. You have also committed to giving us some information that you were not able to provide in oral evidence this morning.

I thank you very much indeed, and I draw the public part of this morning’s committee session to a close.

10:48 Meeting continued in private until 11:25.  

Public Audit Committee

Expiring Private Finance Initiative Contracts

Meeting date: 6 June 2024

Richard Leonard

I am sorry to repeat myself, but I presume that you are the accountable officer who is responsible for the economy, efficiency and effectiveness of processes including these and their outcomes.

Public Audit Committee

Expiring Private Finance Initiative Contracts

Meeting date: 6 June 2024

Richard Leonard

I am struggling a little bit to understand why you could not have got the Serco staff on to those superior terms and conditions at a much earlier point. Why are they having to wait until December?

Public Audit Committee

Expiring Private Finance Initiative Contracts

Meeting date: 6 June 2024

Richard Leonard

We will now move into the second half of this morning’s session. Mr Reekie and Ms Alexander, we may come to you with some questions that we would like you to answer. My first question, though, will be targeted at Mr Rennick. As I understand it, eight PFI projects within the education and justice division are due to end before 2030. This came up when Willie Coffey was asking you questions in relation to HMP Kilmarnock. Do any of those contracts have exit fees attached to them?

Public Audit Committee

Expiring Private Finance Initiative Contracts

Meeting date: 6 June 2024

Richard Leonard

Thank you.

Do you, from your horizon scanning, have any information that you can share about when you expect a particular surge in the number of PFI contracts reaching their expiry dates? Are you confident that we have the capacity to deal with any years in which there might be a particularly high volume?

Public Audit Committee

Expiring Private Finance Initiative Contracts

Meeting date: 6 June 2024

Richard Leonard

That is helpful. Could you clarify what purpose is served by an exit fee? We have learned this morning that there was not one in the case of Kilmarnock prison. Why on some contracts are there exit fees? Why would you negotiate an exit fee?

Public Audit Committee

Expiring Private Finance Initiative Contracts

Meeting date: 6 June 2024

Richard Leonard

That is helpful. I am conscious of the fact that, the last time he was here, Mr Reekie told us that there are only three people in the team looking at PFIs, so I recognise that there might be some capacity issues. However, if you could supply us with that information, that would be helpful.

In a similar vein, is retendering an option in any of these cases? That is probably more a question for Mr Rennick. Do you look at a range of options in the lead-up to the expiry of one of those PFI contracts? We rehearsed the issue a little bit in relation to the Serco contract at Kilmarnock, but in more general terms, wearing your value-for-money hat, is that a consideration?

Public Audit Committee

Expiring Private Finance Initiative Contracts

Meeting date: 6 June 2024

Richard Leonard

Thank you. I am conscious of the time and I know that two other members of the committee want to come in with some questions. I will turn to the deputy convener first and then I will bring Mr Simpson in.

Public Audit Committee

Expiring Private Finance Initiative Contracts

Meeting date: 6 June 2024

Richard Leonard

We have the chief executive of NHS Scotland coming before the committee before we break for summer recess, so we could consider the issue then.

My parting question is around lessons learned. Teresa Medhurst, I know that you and your colleagues are still in the middle of the transition but, even at this early stage, do you think that there are things that you might have done differently? Lorraine Roughan, when you go to Kerry Alexander’s collaborative workshops and share your experience, what are the dos and don’ts that you would take to that kind of get together?