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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 9 November 2025
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Displaying 3464 contributions

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Public Audit Committee

“Alcohol and Drug Services”

Meeting date: 21 November 2024

Richard Leonard

Okay. I think that Colin Beattie will come in with questions about that.

I will move on to a point that is rather more bureaucratic, which is about the architecture of the delivery of services, such as the alcohol and drug partnerships. You have mentioned before, and again in this report, the extent to which those are, or should be, autonomous, and whether the Government’s arrangements are “mature” and so on. Will you explain why that makes a difference? In your estimation—as somebody who has been talking about public sector reform this morning—what reforms would you like to see in this area, as an example? Where should the balance of funding, responsibility and powers rest for interventions to have the best outcomes?

Public Audit Committee

“Alcohol and Drug Services”

Meeting date: 21 November 2024

Richard Leonard

Thank you very much indeed, Graham.

We have run right out of time, so I am going to conclude this evidence session by highlighting a couple of areas that we might wish to follow up on. For example, we never really got a chance to pursue the issue of staff turnover, which was mentioned earlier, so we might write to you with some follow-up questions on that.

Notwithstanding that, I thank Ray Buist, Cornilius Chikwama and the Auditor General for giving us so much of their time this morning to answer our questions on what I think all of us on the committee agree is a really important report. We recognise that it is follow-up work, and that you are continuing to keep a very close eye on this area of public policy, not least because of the outcomes. Clearly, people are being let down. Our record on drug and alcohol-related deaths is shameful and needs to be addressed as a matter of public priority. Thank you for your evidence this morning.

We now move into private session.

11:01 Meeting continued in private until 11:29.  

Public Audit Committee

“Alcohol and Drug Services”

Meeting date: 21 November 2024

Richard Leonard

That felt almost like a valedictory statement, but I am afraid that we have several more questions to put to you this morning, starting with James Dornan, who, as I mentioned earlier, is joining us by videolink.

Public Audit Committee

“Alcohol and Drug Services”

Meeting date: 21 November 2024

Richard Leonard

Auditor General, before we leave that question and I bring in Graham Simpson for a final round of questions, can I take you to exhibit 5 in the report, which is a graphic representation of performance by health board? You make the point that we cannot compare rural Scotland with urban Scotland and so on, but, if I look at the performance as depicted in the graph of, say, NHS Greater Glasgow and Clyde, as I read it, that health board has met its targets on alcohol and drug treatment service performance measures in every single one of the past 10 quarters. However, if I look at NHS Lothian, which has at its centre Scotland’s second biggest city, I see that performance targets have not been met in any of the past 10 quarters. Why is there such huge variation from one end of the M8 to the other?

Public Audit Committee

“Alcohol and Drug Services”

Meeting date: 21 November 2024

Richard Leonard

It should not really be down to luck, should it?

I invite Graham Simpson to put some final questions to you.

Public Audit Committee

“Alcohol and Drug Services”

Meeting date: 21 November 2024

Richard Leonard

Thank you very much indeed. Your report opens with some very harrowing figures, not just in terms of the absolute numbers of deaths and of the lives that are affected by them, but also in showing how bad the picture in Scotland remains in relative terms. It draws on figures from August 2024, so they are very up to date.

Even in paragraph 2 of the introduction, you say that the drug-induced death rate in Scotland is

“27.7 per 100,000 population”

and that

“The next highest rate was Ireland with a rate of 9.7”

per 100,000 people. That is almost three times the incidence of drug-induced deaths in Scotland compared with Ireland, and it puts Scotland way out in a wholly worse place than anywhere else in the rest of the United Kingdom, as well as in relation to the European examples that you draw on. You talk about the death rate from drug poisoning being twice as high in Scotland as it is anywhere else in the UK.

Those figures do not seem to be getting better, even over time. What is your reading of the reasons that lie behind the record that Scotland has, compared with other parts of the United Kingdom and other parts of Europe?

Public Audit Committee

“Fiscal sustainability and reform in Scotland”

Meeting date: 21 November 2024

Richard Leonard

Before we move to item 2, I invite the Auditor General for Scotland to make a short statement on his report “Fiscal sustainability and reform in Scotland”, which was published earlier today.

Public Audit Committee

“Alcohol and Drug Services”

Meeting date: 21 November 2024

Richard Leonard

As you point out in the report, stigma is a huge factor in things such as suicide. It is a huge factor in the reason why people are in prison. It is a huge factor in driving why people are homeless. There are much wider implications of our competency in dealing with the challenge that we face as a society.

Public Audit Committee

“Alcohol and Drug Services”

Meeting date: 21 November 2024

Richard Leonard

Thank you. I will move things along by inviting the deputy convener to ask some questions.

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2023/24 audit of the Scottish Government Consolidated Accounts”

Meeting date: 7 November 2024

Richard Leonard

Thank you—we get the message.

I invite the deputy convener to put some questions.