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All Official Reports of meetings in the Debating Chamber of the Scottish Parliament.
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Public Audit Committee [Draft]
Meeting date: 23 April 2025
Richard Leonard
Yes—and you can rest assured that everything will be in miles, not kilometres.
I would like to reflect on the answers that you have given to Graham Simpson. Back on 26 February, when the Auditor General was sat in the seat that you are sitting in this morning, he said:
“The rate of change suggests that we are moving away from delivering the target rather than moving closer to it.”—[Official Report, Public Audit Committee, 26 February 2025; c 3.]
Do you also disagree with his conclusion as far as that is concerned?
Public Audit Committee [Draft]
Meeting date: 23 April 2025
Richard Leonard
But that is the target, is it not? That is what the 20 per cent target is based on.
Public Audit Committee [Draft]
Meeting date: 23 April 2025
Richard Leonard
Yes—thank you very much. That is helpful. We will bring in the Transport Scotland representatives shortly.
Before I bring in Graham Simpson, I want to ask you about one area in the report. We have had exchanges about this before, cabinet secretary—it is about the peak fares experiment pilot. In case study 1 in the report, the Auditor General and the Accounts Commission specifically make the point that the evaluation conducted by Transport Scotland of the removal of the pilot on peak fares on the railways suggested that no consideration was given to the impact on car use of the removal of that pilot. Why on earth would that be?
Public Audit Committee [Draft]
Meeting date: 23 April 2025
Richard Leonard
As two committee members still have questions to put to you, we will try to speed things up slightly. I invite Stuart McMillan to put his questions.
Public Audit Committee [Draft]
Meeting date: 23 April 2025
Richard Leonard
Just for the record, I think that there has been only one Secretary of State for Scotland since the election but two Secretaries of State for Transport.
Public Audit Committee [Draft]
Meeting date: 23 April 2025
Richard Leonard
Agenda item 2, which is the main item on our agenda this morning, is further consideration of the report “Sustainable transport: Reducing car use”, which was produced jointly by the Auditor General for Scotland and the Accounts Commission.
Before we get to that, though, I declare an interest as the convener of the National Union of Rail, Maritime and Transport Workers—RMT—Scottish parliamentary group.
I welcome our witnesses. We are very pleased to be joined by Fiona Hyslop, the Cabinet Secretary for Transport. Alongside the cabinet secretary are Alison Irvine, the chief executive of Transport Scotland; Fiona Brown, the interim director of transport strategy and analysis at Transport Scotland; and Heather Cowan, the head of climate change and just transition for Transport Scotland. We are also very pleased to welcome Councillor Gail Macgregor, who is the leader of Dumfries and Galloway Council and environment and economy spokesperson for the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities. It is in that capacity that she joins us today. Alongside Councillor Macgregor is Robert Nicol, the chief officer for environment and economy at COSLA.
We have a number of questions to put to you but, before we get to those, I invite the cabinet secretary to make a short opening statement.
Public Audit Committee [Draft]
Meeting date: 23 April 2025
Richard Leonard
So you disagree with the Auditor General’s conclusion.
Public Audit Committee [Draft]
Meeting date: 23 April 2025
Richard Leonard
You do not accept the findings; you simply accept the recommendations.
Public Audit Committee [Draft]
Meeting date: 23 April 2025
Richard Leonard
The report that was published in January this year by the Auditor General for Scotland and the Accounts Commission for Scotland says of the Scottish Government that there has been
“a lack of leadership”,
which has
“resulted in minimal progress against the demanding policy intention.”
I invite Gail Macgregor to tell us whether COSLA accepts the findings and recommendations of the report.
Public Audit Committee [Draft]
Meeting date: 23 April 2025
Richard Leonard
Thank you for that answer. You said that you had been in post from 2022 onwards. I do not know whether Mr Nicol was around in 2020—