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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 9 November 2025
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Displaying 3464 contributions

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Public Audit Committee [Draft]

Decision on Taking Business in Private

Meeting date: 12 December 2024

Richard Leonard

Good morning, and welcome to the 32nd meeting in 2024 of the Public Audit Committee. The first agenda item is a decision on whether to take agenda items 3, 4 and 5 in private. Do members agree to do so?

Members indicated agreement.

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

“NHS in Scotland 2024: Finance and performance”

Meeting date: 12 December 2024

Richard Leonard

The second agenda item is consideration of the Auditor General for Scotland’s section 23 report “NHS in Scotland 2024”, which is a finance and performance report. I am pleased to welcome Stephen Boyle, the Auditor General, to this morning’s meeting. He is joined by the following colleagues from Audit Scotland: Carol Calder, audit director; Leigh Johnston, senior manager; and Bernie Milligan, audit manager.

We have a wide range of questions on your wide-ranging report, Auditor General. Before we get to those questions, I invite you to make a short opening statement.

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

“NHS in Scotland 2024: Finance and performance”

Meeting date: 12 December 2024

Richard Leonard

Thank you, Graham. I invite Colin Beattie to continue with some questions on the theme of financial performance.

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

“NHS in Scotland 2024: Finance and performance”

Meeting date: 12 December 2024

Richard Leonard

Auditor General, I thank you for resisting the temptation, which members of the committee have put your way several times, to offer clinical judgments. I really do not think that it is fair to ask you to make those judgments.

One area that you are more comfortable and qualified to talk about is highlighted in paragraph 100 of today’s report. That is a recent report by the chief medical officer that talks about the need to focus on

“equity, prevention and early intervention”.

I recall that, in the report, “Fiscal sustainability and reform in Scotland”, on which we considered evidence last week, you once again used, as a touchstone, the Christie report, which you said had “remarkable longevity” and “ongoing relevance”. Those themes are captured in the chief medical officer’s assessment, too.

We have spoken a lot this morning about reforms to the NHS, but there is a wider palette of reform—perhaps social and even economic—that we might need to look at if we are to see a shift in the provision of health services and how we best improve public health in Scotland.

10:15  

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

“NHS in Scotland 2024: Finance and performance”

Meeting date: 12 December 2024

Richard Leonard

I have a few more questions on that, but I am conscious of the time, so I invite James Dornan, who joins us via videolink, to put some questions to you.

Public Audit Committee

“Fiscal sustainability and reform in Scotland”

Meeting date: 5 December 2024

Richard Leonard

Okay. You also mention governance arrangements in the report and say that a new PSR board has been established. Can you tell us a bit more about that? Who is on it? What are its terms of reference? What is its plan of action?

Public Audit Committee

“Fiscal sustainability and reform in Scotland”

Meeting date: 5 December 2024

Richard Leonard

I do not think that “speeding up” and that sentence really fit. Not for the first time, the committee is hearing about a structure that has been established that is not really meeting, which rather belies the priority that it is being afforded, I would have thought. Are the minutes of the board published?

Public Audit Committee

“Fiscal sustainability and reform in Scotland”

Meeting date: 5 December 2024

Richard Leonard

Thank you. I have a couple of final questions and I think that Graham Simpson also wants to come in. I will bring him in shortly, but I want to touch on a couple of things. We think that it is important to get your answers to these questions on the record.

One of the weaknesses that you cite is the way in which equalities and human rights impact assessments are dealt with and whether or not they are built into the beginning of decisions about public service reform. Do you want to outline for us how you think that decision making is being enacted and whether or not equality and human rights impact assessments are part of that or an afterthought or are not given sufficient priority at all?

Public Audit Committee

“Fiscal sustainability and reform in Scotland”

Meeting date: 5 December 2024

Richard Leonard

One of the things that really struck me was what you say a couple of paragraphs later. You say that, despite the Scottish Government contacting public bodies three times since January 2023 to assess their ability to carry out reform,

“These requests did not generate concrete information on the quantity, quality or anticipated impact of public bodies’ collective work on reform.”

Again, that is a fairly basic requirement, is it not? What is your understanding of the reason why the requests did not elicit any useful answers from the public bodies that the Government spoke to three times?

Public Audit Committee

“Fiscal sustainability and reform in Scotland”

Meeting date: 5 December 2024

Richard Leonard

Again, you reference in the report that there is a lack of data on workforce, estates and so on. I know that it is not completely analogous and I may be stretching things a little bit, but Scottish Canals was in front of us a couple of years ago, in consecutive years, because it failed to carry out a proper asset audit to comply with the standards expected. Yet, in a sense, in your report you are saying that the Scottish Government does not know what assets and what estate it has, never mind the valuation of it. There appear to be big gaps in information here.