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Public Audit Committee [Draft]
Meeting date: 14 May 2025
Richard Leonard
What we are discussing this morning is described as a contract. Is it a woolly, social contract—a voluntary arrangement—or is it a contract in which parties are involved and remedy can be sought? That could be a remedy whereby the Government could say, “As part of the contract, you promised to provide us with data, which you are not doing. You are in breach of the contract.” Or, on the other side, GPs might say, “You promised to give us the resources to have multidisciplinary teams and you haven’t done that. You promised to put resources into secondary care to stop the logjam falling back on us and you haven’t.”
Is it a contract in the sense that people have any access to a remedy if there is a breach of contract?
Public Audit Committee [Draft]
Meeting date: 14 May 2025
Richard Leonard
On that note, I will draw the public part of this morning’s session to a close. Before I do so, I thank our witnesses this morning—Eva Thomas-Tudo, who joined us online, Fiona Lees, Carol Calder and the Auditor General. You have given us quite a lot of food for thought and we will need to consider whether we would like to quiz other people about some of the recommendations and outcomes of the very important report that we have been discussing.
11:34 Meeting continued in private until 12:05.Public Audit Committee [Draft]
Meeting date: 14 May 2025
Richard Leonard
Well, until half past 11 at least.
Public Audit Committee [Draft]
Meeting date: 14 May 2025
Richard Leonard
Good morning. I welcome everyone to the 15th meeting of the Public Audit Committee in 2025. We have received apologies from Stuart McMillan, so I welcome Stephanie Callaghan, who is substituting for Stuart. She is attending virtually for this, her first Public Audit Committee meeting.
Because it is your first meeting, Stephanie, I ask you to declare any relevant interests.
Public Audit Committee [Draft]
Meeting date: 14 May 2025
Richard Leonard
Agenda item 3 is consideration of the report by the Auditor General for Scotland “General practice: Progress since the 2018 General Medical Services contract”. I am pleased to welcome the Auditor General, Stephen Boyle. Alongside the Auditor General we have Carol Calder, audit director at Audit Scotland. Joining us online is Eva Thomas-Tudo, audit manager at Audit Scotland. Also joining us in the committee room, we have Fiona Lees, senior auditor at Audit Scotland. You are all very welcome.
We have a number of questions to put to you on the report that you have produced. However, before we get to those questions, I invite you to give us a short opening presentation, Auditor General.
Public Audit Committee [Draft]
Meeting date: 14 May 2025
Richard Leonard
On that last point, it does not feel as though there is a whole-system approach. We regularly, as the Public Audit Committee, hear the Scottish Government and representatives from health boards say that they have been asked to make recurring and non-recurring savings of 5 per cent every year. Often, when we get into it, the non-recurring savings involve things such as disposal of property or land. Unless this is properly resourced, it is simply not going to work, is it?
SPCB Supported Bodies Landscape Review Committee [Draft]
Meeting date: 8 May 2025
Richard Leonard
I am obviously interested in that aspect of reform as convener of the Public Audit Committee.
SPCB Supported Bodies Landscape Review Committee [Draft]
Meeting date: 8 May 2025
Richard Leonard
Thank you.
SPCB Supported Bodies Landscape Review Committee [Draft]
Meeting date: 8 May 2025
Richard Leonard
Last week, His Majesty’s chief inspector of constabulary in Scotland talked to the committee about some collaborative work that he is doing with Audit Scotland, on a best value audit of Police Scotland, so there are good examples of such synergies.
Let me move from the existing landscape to the process. As I read it, you have a 13-step process in the ministerial control framework to assess whether a new body is warranted. The mantra underpinning that is that
“any new public body should only be set up as a last resort.”
What does that mean in practice?
SPCB Supported Bodies Landscape Review Committee [Draft]
Meeting date: 8 May 2025
Richard Leonard
The framework was introduced exactly two years ago, in May 2023. In those two years, how many new public bodies have been created?