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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 14 May 2025
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Displaying 3102 contributions

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Public Audit Committee

Expiring Private Finance Initiative Contracts

Meeting date: 6 June 2024

Richard Leonard

Okay. I am going to bring in other members of the committee. I will bring in Jamie Greene, and Graham Simpson may also have a question on the subject.

Public Audit Committee

Expiring Private Finance Initiative Contracts

Meeting date: 6 June 2024

Richard Leonard

Okay. I call Mr Simpson.

Public Audit Committee

Expiring Private Finance Initiative Contracts

Meeting date: 6 June 2024

Richard Leonard

On 1 December, not by 1 December.

Public Audit Committee

Expiring Private Finance Initiative Contracts

Meeting date: 6 June 2024

Richard Leonard

Thank you very much. I bring in the deputy convener.

Public Audit Committee

Expiring Private Finance Initiative Contracts

Meeting date: 6 June 2024

Richard Leonard

Do you know how many of those contracts that are coming to an end between now and 2030 involve some kind of costs? Kerry Alexander might be able to help with that.

Public Audit Committee

Expiring Private Finance Initiative Contracts

Meeting date: 6 June 2024

Richard Leonard

Okay. The BBC carried a story with the headline “PFI ‘buy back’ deals to cost taxpayer millions”. I do not know about the figure of millions of pounds, but it referred to 11 PFI contracts. However, you think that the figure is nine. Can you comment on that?

Public Audit Committee

Expiring Private Finance Initiative Contracts

Meeting date: 6 June 2024

Richard Leonard

As you have mentioned East Ayrshire, I am bound to go into the broader issue of the East Ayrshire community hospital. The then First Minister Nicola Sturgeon announced that that hospital was going to be taken back into NHS Ayrshire and Arran earlier than the time scheduled in the PFI contract, and I think there has been an estimate of the additional cost. If that issue fell to your department, Mr Rennick, would there not have to be a conversation between the minister—in that case, the First Minister—and you as the accountable officer as to whether that was the right decision?

Public Audit Committee

Expiring Private Finance Initiative Contracts

Meeting date: 6 June 2024

Richard Leonard

There was an announcement recently about Falkirk schools, presumably by Falkirk Council. Is that a proposal to bring them in house earlier than the expiry date of the PFI?

Public Audit Committee

Expiring Private Finance Initiative Contracts

Meeting date: 6 June 2024

Richard Leonard

Again, I am struggling to understand under what circumstances the public sector would walk away from a lease. If you have a hospital that is 25 years old, you will not abandon it, presumably. I suppose that there may be circumstances where you might do that, but it is highly unlikely, is it not? In comparative terms, it will still be a relatively new piece of infrastructure that is running as part of the health service. I am struggling to understand why, under those circumstances, walking away would be considered an option and, therefore, why there is this exit fee premium to be paid.

Public Audit Committee

Expiring Private Finance Initiative Contracts

Meeting date: 6 June 2024

Richard Leonard

Could I pick up on Mr Jobson’s answers? You have existing staff who were employed by Serco on certain terms and conditions of employment, and you have recruited new people to work at the prison who are on different terms and conditions of employment, specifically with fewer hours, more breaks and more annual leave. Presumably, that could be a cause of some conflict if existing long-serving staff see that people that they are working alongside are getting much better leave and break arrangements. How are you managing that operationally? If I am on a shorter working week than somebody else, how do you manage that? Also, how are you managing the potential for conflict between one group of workers and another?