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Seòmar agus comataidhean

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 14 May 2025
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Displaying 3102 contributions

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Public Audit Committee

Decision on Taking Business in Private

Meeting date: 20 June 2024

Richard Leonard

The second item is for members to decide whether to take agenda items 4, 5 and 6 in private. Are we content to take those items in private?

Members indicated agreement.

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “NHS in Scotland 2023”

Meeting date: 20 June 2024

Richard Leonard

I will ask you at the outset whether you accept the recommendations that are made in the Audit Scotland report.

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “NHS in Scotland 2023”

Meeting date: 20 June 2024

Richard Leonard

Okay. I will look at the recommendations that were made in the report from last year, which are covered in appendix 3 of the report from this year. It is a summation of progress that has been made against the recommendations from the 2022 report, which are grouped into nine broad areas. The Auditor General’s assessment describes that some progress against the recommendations has been made in some areas, but that there has been only limited progress in others and some where no progress was made. How do you respond to that summation in appendix 3 of this year’s report?

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “NHS in Scotland 2023”

Meeting date: 20 June 2024

Richard Leonard

Thanks for that. We would be interested in being sent the link, so that we can look at that work.

One other thing of interest is the asset management and capital investment strategy, which I think is due for publication. Has it been published? Is there a date for its publication?

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “NHS in Scotland 2023”

Meeting date: 20 June 2024

Richard Leonard

But is your cost estimate likely to break the £1 billion barrier?

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “NHS in Scotland 2023”

Meeting date: 20 June 2024

Richard Leonard

On that note, I will draw this morning’s session to a close. Caroline Lamb, I thank you for answering the questions that we have put to you. John Burns and Richard McCallum, I thank you, too, for your input.

There were a couple of areas that we did not quite get to, so we might write to you with some follow-up questions. You have also committed to giving us some information that you were not able to provide in oral evidence this morning.

I thank you very much indeed, and I draw the public part of this morning’s committee session to a close.

10:48 Meeting continued in private until 11:25.  

Public Audit Committee

Expiring Private Finance Initiative Contracts

Meeting date: 6 June 2024

Richard Leonard

Okay. One of the other variables on these contracts is that some have so-called secondary periods, which is, as I understand it, an extension of the PFI contract. Can you tell us what your understanding is of how many of those are in the system or we are likely to face between, for example, now and 2030?

Public Audit Committee

Expiring Private Finance Initiative Contracts

Meeting date: 6 June 2024

Richard Leonard

Our major item for consideration this morning is a look into how expiring private finance initiative contracts are dealt with, which is something that the committee has delved into over the past few months. I am very pleased that we have a line-up of people who will, I hope, shed some light on that process, how it is working and how it might work in the future.

I am very pleased to welcome Neil Rennick, the director general for education and justice in the Scottish Government; Peter Reekie, the chief executive of the Scottish Futures Trust; Kerry Alexander, the director of infrastructure, finance and programmes at the Scottish Futures Trust; Teresa Medhurst, the chief executive of the Scottish Prison Service; Lorraine Roughan, the project executive for His Majesty’s Prison Kilmarnock; and Adam Jobson, the director of organisational development at the Scottish Prison Service. You are very welcome.

We have quite a number of questions to put to you this morning, but before we get to those, I invite Neil Rennick and Teresa Medhurst to make brief opening remarks.

Public Audit Committee

Expiring Private Finance Initiative Contracts

Meeting date: 6 June 2024

Richard Leonard

Thank you very much, indeed. Can I ask an opening question of the director general? Did you say that the Scottish Government is not directly responsible for the process? You are the accountable officer, are you not? Your responsibility is to make sure that there is value for money in the outcomes from the process.

Public Audit Committee

Expiring Private Finance Initiative Contracts

Meeting date: 6 June 2024

Richard Leonard

Yes. I understand that you are not in breach of the TUPE regulations. You could continue to pay the staff at the Serco rates and employ them on the Serco terms and conditions. Our point of interest here is that, given that these are the people who make the prison work or not work so how they are treated is quite important, there are questions about how that is working and whether it could be done in a different way. Could it be done in a more accelerated way, given that we understand that there are some issues around capacity?