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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 14 May 2025
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Displaying 3102 contributions

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Public Audit Committee

Decision on Taking Business in Private

Meeting date: 5 September 2024

Richard Leonard

Thank you very much. Before we move to the major part of our agenda this morning, do members agree to take next week’s meeting in private?

Members indicated agreement.

Public Audit Committee

Tackling Digital Exclusion

Meeting date: 5 September 2024

Richard Leonard

Agenda item 2 is a discussion on the “Tackling digital exclusion” report, which was produced just a few weeks ago. I am pleased that Stephen Boyle, who is the Auditor General for Scotland, is joining us this morning. Alongside the Auditor General are Jillian Matthew, who is a senior manager, and Bernie Milligan, who is an audit manager, both from Audit Scotland. We are also pleased to welcome Mike Neilson, who is a member of the Accounts Commission, because this is a joint report between Audit Scotland and the Accounts Commission.

As usual, we have a number of questions that we would like to put to you, but before we get to those, I invite the Auditor General to make a short opening statement.

Public Audit Committee

Tackling Digital Exclusion

Meeting date: 5 September 2024

Richard Leonard

I will begin on a positive note. You regularly come before the committee calling for public sector reform. One strand that many people identify with is the introduction of digital technology. The report is about how that is implemented and who is included in or excluded from that. Will you elaborate on why you think that digital technology is central to that public sector reform agenda? In your opening remarks, you mentioned some examples that are given in the report. Social Security Scotland is mentioned in particular. Can you say more about the examples that you have identified as good practice?

Public Audit Committee

Tackling Digital Exclusion

Meeting date: 5 September 2024

Richard Leonard

Before I bring in Colin Beattie, I will go back to exhibit 2, which looks at the human rights of people who are potentially affected by digital exclusion. It identifies examples of that, including blue badge holders; people not being able to access council tax reductions or their welfare benefits accounts; ethnic minority citizens not being able to access services that they are entitled to, because of language barriers; and welfare sanctions for people who cannot upload their journals online.

The report highlights that the application process for a blue badge is online only. How does that sit with the stated aims of COSLA and the Scottish Government on the lenses of inclusion and offering signposted alternatives? If the application process is exclusively online, it will, almost inevitably, exclude people who are entitled to a blue badge.

10:00  

Public Audit Committee

Tackling Digital Exclusion

Meeting date: 5 September 2024

Richard Leonard

We are short of time, so we will move on to Colin Beattie to ask the next questions.

Public Audit Committee

Tackling Digital Exclusion

Meeting date: 5 September 2024

Richard Leonard

The Scottish Government’s strategy document says:

“We will ... ensure that all public services are designed through the lenses of inclusion, offering signposted alternative ways of accessing services for those who cannot or do not want to use digital routes”.

To what extent is that happening? You have mentioned the example of Near Me but, across the whole of the public sector and the provision of public services, how often are those services

“designed through the lenses of inclusion”?

Public Audit Committee

Tackling Digital Exclusion

Meeting date: 5 September 2024

Richard Leonard

Your report says that that has potential to make an unequal society more unequal. Paragraph 18 talks about the negative impacts. People who are digitally excluded are less likely to have access to information in general, are less likely to have access to the jobs market or to know about their children’s education and are less able to maximise their financial position because they cannot get access to things that would be cheaper if they could use that route. They can incur debts or have heightened social isolation. All those results compound inequalities, rather than addressing them.

The Government’s stated position in “A Changing Nation” is that

“We tackle poverty by sharing opportunities, wealth and power more equally.”

It does not seem to me that there is a lot of evidence of that.

Public Audit Committee

Tackling Digital Exclusion

Meeting date: 5 September 2024

Richard Leonard

Graham Simpson, did you want to come in briefly at this point?

Public Audit Committee

Tackling Digital Exclusion

Meeting date: 5 September 2024

Richard Leonard

I am keen to move things on. Our deputy convener has a number of questions to put to you. Over to you, Jamie.

Public Audit Committee

Tackling Digital Exclusion

Meeting date: 5 September 2024

Richard Leonard

Graham Simpson wants to pick up on some of those points and develop others.