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Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 11 June 2025
Richard Leonard
Can you think of any other Scottish Government departments in which the strategic leadership role and the operational role are similarly combined?
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 11 June 2025
Richard Leonard
Okay. I am sure that we will return to the issues during the course of this morning’s evidence session. I now invite Stuart McMillan to put some questions to you.
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 11 June 2025
Richard Leonard
Is it advertised widely or is it just advertised to that group in quite a targeted way?
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 11 June 2025
Richard Leonard
In the Parliament, the debates on health typically focus on inputs versus outcomes, with a lot of emphasis on how many people are being employed to carry out work or how many more appointments there will be, and whether the outcomes are changing as a result of that. It seems to me that this issue is about the inputs, because unless you get the inputs right, you will not get the outcomes that you want.
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 11 June 2025
Richard Leonard
Thank you very much indeed. That is a useful point to conclude proceedings at. There are a number of areas where it might be useful to get a bit more information, if the witnesses are able to supply it.
Thank you very much for your evidence, Auditor General. I also thank Bernie Milligan and Alison Cumming for their input, which has been greatly appreciated.
11:16 Meeting continued in private until 12:20.Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 11 June 2025
Richard Leonard
Thank you. I will ask Graham Simpson to put some questions to you.
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 11 June 2025
Richard Leonard
Do you take a view on whether it would be better for those two roles to be decoupled?
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 11 June 2025
Richard Leonard
This is the biggest spending department of the Scottish Government, is it not?
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 11 June 2025
Richard Leonard
Good morning, and welcome, everyone, to the 19th meeting in 2025 of the Public Audit Committee. Under agenda item 1, the committee must decide whether to take agenda items 3, 4 and 5 in private. Do we agree to take those items in private?
Members indicated agreement.
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 11 June 2025
Richard Leonard
Thank you very much for that introduction.
Key message 2 in the report describes
“weaknesses within the scrutiny and assurance processes at the Scottish Government level.”
As an example, you cite the
“combined role of director general for health and social care and the chief executive of NHS Scotland”,
which are titles that are borne by one person. It would be useful for the committee to understand why you believe that that poses a risk. Perhaps you can point to some examples of that presenting a conflict of interest.