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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 2 August 2025
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Displaying 3298 contributions

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Public Audit Committee [Draft]

“General practice: Progress since the 2018 General Medical Services contract”

Meeting date: 18 June 2025

Richard Leonard

Other committee members might return to some of those points. I will move on to another aspect of the report, which I asked the Auditor General about when he was before us a few weeks ago. In the end, we are talking about a whole system, and the difficulties that are faced in secondary care in the national health service are pretty well documented. There are extensive waiting times and a large number of people on waiting lists. Will you describe for us—maybe Dr Provan can answer, too—the impact on general practitioners of that persistent and almost intractable increase in waiting times for people who are awaiting treatment in hospitals? You choose between yourselves who wants to answer first.

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

“General practice: Progress since the 2018 General Medical Services contract”

Meeting date: 18 June 2025

Richard Leonard

I now invite Stephanie Callaghan to continue with the theme of the patient experience and other aspects of the Audit Scotland report.

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

“General practice: Progress since the 2018 General Medical Services contract”

Meeting date: 18 June 2025

Richard Leonard

Stephanie, we are quite short of time. If you agree, we will move on and I will invite Graham Simpson to put questions to the panel.

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

“General practice: Progress since the 2018 General Medical Services contract”

Meeting date: 18 June 2025

Richard Leonard

Thank you Stephanie; that is much appreciated. I turn to Colin Beattie, who has some questions to put to the witnesses.

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

“General practice: Progress since the 2018 General Medical Services contract”

Meeting date: 18 June 2025

Richard Leonard

I have two final questions to put to you, director general. The first may have been answered, not so much in the cabinet secretary’s statement, but in the associated paperwork that accompanied his statement, which I think Mr Chapman alluded to, in part, earlier on. I look back to the evidence that we took from the Auditor General on 14 May, which is reflected in paragraph 42 of the report. He said to us that

“the Scottish Government still needs to clarify its plans for general practice and to set out the actions, timescales and cost to deliver that.”—[Official Report, Public Audit Committee, 14 May 2025; c 4.]

What he is asking for there is very clear. Do you plan to publish that information?

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

“General practice: Progress since the 2018 General Medical Services contract”

Meeting date: 18 June 2025

Richard Leonard

In the fullness of time, you might perhaps be able to pause and reflect on the evidence session that we had with the BMA and the Royal College of General Practitioners before you came in, because they gave a rather different picture of the action that was needed.

I will ask you one final question, director general, which again relates to yesterday’s announcement. One of the things that was announced was the merger of National Services Scotland and NHS Education for Scotland. Mergers and reorganisations often deflect organisations from their core purpose. In the evidence session that we had before you came in and in this one that you have been involved in, it has emerged that both those institutions—both those parts of the delivery of services—are critical to meeting the aspirations and the ambitions of the 2018 contract. Do you not think that merging those organisations might deflect them from the things that we want them to get on with, including data collection and ensuring that GPs are properly and fully employed?

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

“General practice: Progress since the 2018 General Medical Services contract”

Meeting date: 18 June 2025

Richard Leonard

Thank you very much indeed. You have covered many of the topics that we will pick up this morning, including IT, premises, funding and the delivery of support and services.

I will begin with something that is a bit more political and practical, perhaps, by going back to the First Minister’s programme for government statement. He spoke about the delivery of an extra 100,000 appointments in GP surgeries. What was your reaction to that?

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

“NHS in Scotland: Spotlight on governance”

Meeting date: 11 June 2025

Richard Leonard

In the Parliament, the debates on health typically focus on inputs versus outcomes, with a lot of emphasis on how many people are being employed to carry out work or how many more appointments there will be, and whether the outcomes are changing as a result of that. It seems to me that this issue is about the inputs, because unless you get the inputs right, you will not get the outcomes that you want.

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

“NHS in Scotland: Spotlight on governance”

Meeting date: 11 June 2025

Richard Leonard

Thank you. I will ask Graham Simpson to put some questions to you.

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

“NHS in Scotland: Spotlight on governance”

Meeting date: 11 June 2025

Richard Leonard

Thank you very much indeed. That is a useful point to conclude proceedings at. There are a number of areas where it might be useful to get a bit more information, if the witnesses are able to supply it.

Thank you very much for your evidence, Auditor General. I also thank Bernie Milligan and Alison Cumming for their input, which has been greatly appreciated.

11:16 Meeting continued in private until 12:20.