Seòmar agus comataidhean

I welcome people back to the Public Audit Committee. Agenda item 3 is further consideration of the 2023-24 audit of UHI Perth College. I am very pleased to welcome our three witnesses: Dr Margaret Cook, former principal and chief executive of the college; Graham Watson, former chair of the college board; and Iain Wishart, the former vice principal for operations. I think that you were all in post during the financial year in which the audit was conducted. We have a number of questions to put to you, but I give you the opportunity, before we get to those questions, to make some opening remarks.

Okay. We will come on to some of the detail of that.

Dr Cook, I think that you mentioned this in your opening statement, but did you see the Auditor General’s evidence session at this committee on 8 October?

I wish to pick you up on your expression that this was just a snapshot in time. Given your professional background, do you recognise the point made in paragraph 18 of Audit Scotland’s report that weaknesses in the financial team went back to 2018? Do you recognise that the annual audit report from Deloitte, the external auditors, said:

“In response to the significant risks identified, no reliance was placed on the work of internal audit and we performed all work ourselves”?

That suggests to us that there was quite a systematic long-term problem.

I will turn to you again, Dr Cook. Paragraph 4.8 of the UHI Perth financial regulations, which have an effective publication date of June 2021, says:

“The College Principal is responsible for the detailed administration of the College”,

including various headings, which we can explore. One of them is that

“The College has a sound system of internal management and control, including an audit committee”

and

“an effective internal audit service.”

It has been suggested to us that that did not exist.

We will get into more detail as the morning progresses. I invite Colin Beattie to put questions to you.

Welcome back. We will now turn to agenda item 3, which is consideration of the 2024-25 audit of NHS Grampian, which has warranted the production of a section 22 report. I am pleased to welcome back the Auditor General, Stephen Boyle. I also welcome back Leigh Johnston, who is a senior manager at Audit Scotland. We are joined for this session by Alison Cumming, who is executive director, performance audit and best value, at Audit Scotland.

Before we ask our questions, I invite the Auditor General to make an opening statement.

Thank you very much. Of course, the IJB structure was set by legislation passed by this Parliament, so it is very much of interest to us that you are doing further work in this area to see whether the intention has been carried out in the implementation.

I will invite Joe FitzPatrick to put some questions to you.

Okay. I will finish where we started. As I understand it, this is the first time in 20 years—two decades—that a section 22 report has been presented to Parliament on NHS Grampian. The final question from me is: what has led us to this point? In the report, you start off by talking about the financial position: the £65.2 million brokerage in the financial year that the audit is from, the loans outstanding being £90 million and so on. If it was just the financial position alone, would that warrant a section 22 report, or is it warranted by a combination of the financial position together with those performance issues, the Healthcare Improvement Scotland inspection of Dr Gray’s in Elgin and the traffic-light performance review attached to the report, which shows there are some major areas of concern in delivery of key treatments? Is it around the bed capacity issue? If it was just performance issues, would there be a section 22 report? If it was just financial issues, would there be a section 22 report? Is it because there are both sets of issues that it warrants, in your view, a section 22 report presented to Parliament to outline your concerns?

Okay, thank you. On that key message, we will draw this morning’s evidence session to a close.

Thank you again for the very useful evidence that you have provided for the committee this morning in our consideration of the audit report into NHS Grampian. I thank Alison Cumming, Leigh Johnston and the Auditor General for providing us with lots of food for thought.

I will now, as previously agreed, move the committee into private session. Thank you.

Item 2 is consideration of the 2024-25 audit of NHS Ayrshire and Arran. I am very pleased to welcome this morning the Auditor General, Stephen Boyle. Good morning. Alongside the Auditor General are Fiona Mitchell-Knight, who is an audit director at Audit Scotland, and Leigh Johnston, who is a senior manager at Audit Scotland.

We have some questions to put to you on the section 22 report, Auditor General, but before we get to our questions, I invite you to make an opening statement.