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Seòmar agus comataidhean

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 14 August 2025
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Displaying 3298 contributions

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SPCB Supported Bodies Landscape Review Committee

SPCB Supported Bodies Landscape Review

Meeting date: 20 March 2025

Richard Leonard

Does anybody else want to come in on that?

SPCB Supported Bodies Landscape Review Committee

SPCB Supported Bodies Landscape Review

Meeting date: 20 March 2025

Richard Leonard

Good morning. I am interested in finding out your views on language. How interchangeable are some of the terms that are used in the discussion about what purpose the different commissions and commissioners fulfil?

When we started this exercise, we were told that, typically, some commissions are regulatory and some deal with advocacy. Alison Payne, you have talked about advocacy and integrity commissions and commissioners. Ruth Lamont, you have talked about regulatory commissions but also about contested social needs commissioners and special interest commissioners. Dr Elliott, you have talked about developing a strategic state. Are those terms interchangeable or do they represent the different profiles, powers and purposes of different commissioners?

SPCB Supported Bodies Landscape Review Committee

SPCB Supported Bodies Landscape Review

Meeting date: 20 March 2025

Richard Leonard

Are you fairly clear which commissions and commissioners you put into each of those two categories? Based on what the commissioners said when we asked them how they define themselves, I am not sure that they are clear themselves.

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

Additional Support for Learning

Meeting date: 19 March 2025

Richard Leonard

Thank you. We will explore the issues around the gaps in the data more over the course of the morning.

I have a question about SEEMiS, the education management information system that is mentioned in the briefing. It struck me that some of the definitions are quite broad. One pupil in four needs additional support for learning due to

“social, emotional and behavioural difficulties”,

and there is a calculation that around 10 per cent of pupils require ASL for “other” needs, without it being specified what those needs are.

How does having such broad definitions and uncategorised groups in the system affect the ability to target, plan and resource properly to affect the outcomes, which is what we are interested in?

Public Audit Committee

Additional Support for Learning

Meeting date: 19 March 2025

Richard Leonard

Agenda item 2 is consideration of a briefing prepared by the Auditor General for Scotland and the Accounts Commission on additional support for learning.

I welcome our witnesses. From Audit Scotland, we are joined by Stephen Boyle, the Auditor General for Scotland, Alison Cumming, executive director, performance audit and best value, and Yoshiko Gibo, senior auditor. I am pleased to say that we are also joined by a member of the Accounts Commission, Ruth MacLeod.

Before we turn to the questions, Auditor General, I invite you to make an opening statement.

Public Audit Committee

Additional Support for Learning

Meeting date: 19 March 2025

Richard Leonard

Stuart McMillan will be coming back in a bit later on, but before we leave the areas that he was asking about, I want to go back to a couple of the statistics in the briefing.

We have mentioned the deprivation factor—as you have said, 46 per cent of pupils who require additional support for learning come from the most deprived areas, whereas 27 per cent come from the least deprived areas—but you have also highlighted the difference between boys and girls. I found that very striking when I first read the briefing. You say that boys are 22 per cent more likely to need additional support for learning, are three times more likely than girls to be in the “risk of exclusion” category—I presume that that is for behavioural reasons, although I might be wrong in making that assumption—and are twice as likely as girls to have additional support for learning needs arising from autism.

I know that you are not clinically qualified, Auditor General, but can you speculate, or do you have any evidence, on what might have caused those manifestations?

Public Audit Committee

Additional Support for Learning

Meeting date: 19 March 2025

Richard Leonard

That leads us nicely on to Graham Simpson’s areas of questioning, which include budgets and the financial resourcing of additional support for learning, as well as, I am quite sure, some wider questions that he wants to put to you.

Public Audit Committee

Additional Support for Learning

Meeting date: 19 March 2025

Richard Leonard

Thank you. We will explore the issues around the gaps in the data more over the course of the morning.

I have a question about SEEMiS, the education management information system that is mentioned in the briefing. It struck me that some of the definitions are quite broad. One pupil in four needs additional support for learning due to

“social, emotional and behavioural difficulties”,

and there is a calculation that around 10 per cent of pupils require ASL for “other” needs, without it being specified what those needs are.

How does having such broad definitions and uncategorised groups in the system affect the ability to target, plan and resource properly to affect the outcomes, which is what we are interested in?

Public Audit Committee

Additional Support for Learning

Meeting date: 19 March 2025

Richard Leonard

Is that one of the things that the project board is charged with addressing? If, as you say, the situation is complicated and there are different streams, which I presume are going at different rates at different times, it becomes difficult to understand whether there is proper resourcing. You talk about the need for a national measurement framework, which does not currently exist. I presume that that would help to pull some of this together, would it not?

Public Audit Committee

Additional Support for Learning

Meeting date: 19 March 2025

Richard Leonard

Thank you. Before we finish up, Auditor General, I note that, in the very final section of the briefing, you say something that has been a thread running through this morning’s evidence. The expression that you use is that

“The ASL Project Board has made limited progress”.

We have had a number of questions on that area. You set out that the ASL board was charged with implementing or having oversight over a 76-point action plan and that 40 of the 76 action points have been achieved or completed. The question that is in the air is: what about the 36 action points that have not been fully implemented? What are they and what progress has been made with them?