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Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 26 May 2022
Richard Leonard
I will take you back to some evidence that we heard from the Auditor General about correspondence on 8 and 9 October 2015 that took place between your predecessor as chief executive of Transport Scotland and Government ministers. An email from Transport Scotland reflected Caledonian Maritime Assets Ltd’s concerns about the award of the contract to Ferguson Marine Engineering Ltd. The board of CMAL went so far as to say:
“The Board feel it is their absolute duty to point out the risk to their shareholder and in that respect would expect approval, should SG wish this project to proceed, and to receive direction to that effect”.
The next day, a reply was submitted to Erik Østergaard from the director of aviation, maritime, freight and canals—your predecessor, Fran Pacitti. Transport Scotland used the word “authorised” in relation to CMAL being able
“to enter into the Contracts and any associated documentation.”
At the bottom of that letter, it says:
“I confirm that the Scottish Ministers have considered and approved the contents of this letter.”
One of the issues that are at stake is whether written authority from ministers was sought and secured but not recorded or whether the correspondence does not constitute that at all. Mr Brannen, will you address that point?
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 26 May 2022
Richard Leonard
Okay, but in light of the view of CMAL, which also reports directly to the ministerial team, why do you not think that it was asking for written authority?
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 26 May 2022
Richard Leonard
My final question, Roy Brannen, is to ask whether it was in your gift to advise ministers to terminate the contract. If it was, did it cross your mind to do that?
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 26 May 2022
Richard Leonard
You kind of recused Transport Scotland from that, but, as the accountable officer, you gave advice at the end of April 2017—it is among the 200-odd documents that are now in the public domain—in which you said that, if flexibility on the surety bond were to be introduced, you would require written authority for that.
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 26 May 2022
Richard Leonard
I begin by putting a question to Roy Brannen and Hugh Gillies, but I will take you first, Mr Brannen. You mentioned current and previous roles. You have both held the post of designated accountable officer for Transport Scotland, so can you outline what is required in that role in providing formal advice to ministers and recording decisions, particularly where significant concerns or risks are involved?
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 19 May 2022
Richard Leonard
Willie Coffey has related questions.
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 19 May 2022
Richard Leonard
I understand that from an operational point of view, and I know that you cannot speak on matters of policy, but is it not matter of Government policy that it wishes those contracts to be brought back into the public sector, or have I misunderstood that?
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 19 May 2022
Richard Leonard
That is helpful. In addition to the information that you have agreed to supply to the committee following the questions that Colin Beattie, for example, asked, it would be useful if you could furnish us with a copy of your 2020 guidance. If you are in a position to supply us with the current policy guidance that you receive as civil servants and the plans that you have, that would be helpful. We understand that there are a multitude of different contracts and different exit arrangements and so on, but to the extent to which you can furnish us with the information that allows us to get an overview of where things are, that would be helpful.
I am sorry that we have run out of time, and I appreciate that you have given us an undertaking to provide some of the evidence that we are looking for in writing. That is very helpful. Thank you for coming in to give us the benefit of your insight into how the governance arrangements are working on these major capital projects.
I draw the public part of the meeting to an end.
11:15 Meeting continued in private until 11:44.Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 19 May 2022
Richard Leonard
Good morning. I welcome everyone to the 15th meeting in 2022 of the Public Audit Committee. The first agenda item is a decision on whether to take items 2 and 4 in private. Do we agree to do that?
Members indicated agreement.
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 19 May 2022
Richard Leonard
That being the case, I will immediately move the committee into private session. We will resume with item 3 in public at around 10 o’clock.
09:15 Meeting continued in private.