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Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 8 September 2022
Richard Leonard
Does Graham Simpson want to come in?
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 8 September 2022
Richard Leonard
You have talked about other evidence that we have received, which you think revises the history book a little bit. In your submission to the committee you said that you were
“first aware of the guarantees issue following the selection of preferred bidder”.
However, the correspondence from February 2015 suggests that you were aware of that issue much earlier.
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 8 September 2022
Richard Leonard
No. I am trying to understand whether you had to sign off the voted loan decision.
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 8 September 2022
Richard Leonard
Would that have gone to, for example, the cabinet secretary for finance, the Scottish Government’s director general in charge of finance, or the Cabinet?
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 8 September 2022
Richard Leonard
I have a quick “yes or no” question for you, Mr Mackay. You mentioned in passing the issue of whether it was a fixed-price contract. Is it your belief that it was a fixed-price contract that you approved?
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 8 September 2022
Richard Leonard
It is. Thank you.
We have received a great deal of conflicting evidence—written and oral—over the past few months. As a committee, it is our duty to try to get to the bottom of that and, I suppose, to exercise a test of reasonableness with regard to what we believe. I thank you for your evidence this morning, which has illuminated some of that situation. On some matters, your evidence has perhaps created more areas where there appears to be conflicting evidence. We appreciate your willingness to appear before us and your frankness. If, on reflection, there are other issues that you want to bring to our attention, please do not hesitate to do that. Thank you for your time.
I bring the public part of the meeting to a close.
11:05 Meeting continued in private until 11:42.Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 8 September 2022
Richard Leonard
Craig Hoy has some questions to put to you.
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 8 September 2022
Richard Leonard
I will pick up on that point. Was Transport Scotland present at the CMAL board during that August to October period?
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 8 September 2022
Richard Leonard
There was quite a crucial date in or around that period. On 20 August, five days before the CMAL board meeting, during which the builders refund guarantee was discussed as a major issue, Keith Brown, as Cabinet Secretary for Infrastructure, Investment and Cities, was told by a Transport Scotland official to approve the preferred bidder award to Ferguson Marine. Given that, on 25 August, there was knowledge of an issue around the builders refund guarantee, surely that was known on 20 August. If so, why was that not communicated to the cabinet secretary?
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 8 September 2022
Richard Leonard
On that point, one of the final emails in the collection was sent at 5.15 pm on 9 October by Ainslie McLaughlin. It says:
“Just finished my call with DFM. He now understands the background and that Mr McKay has cleared the proposal. So the way is clear to award.”
The Deputy First Minister, either as the Deputy First Minister or as the Cabinet Secretary for Finance, Constitution and Economy at the time, was involved right at the point of decision. The email before that says:
“would you drop a note in the system to confirm the absence of banana skins after your call with DFM please”.
What would the “banana skins” be?