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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 8 July 2025
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Displaying 3298 contributions

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Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2020/21 audit of National Records of Scotland”

Meeting date: 9 December 2021

Richard Leonard

Thank you, Auditor General. We want to put several questions to you and your team, based on our reading of the report and the wider context in which it sits, part of which touches on our concern that ICT projects are not necessarily delivered on time and on budget, as you mentioned in your opening statement.

The section 22 report mentions almost as a passing reference that the census is one of the biggest ICT projects in Scotland. Could you tell us a bit more about the shape that the project takes? Is it an in-house ICT project or a new capital project, or are you just talking about the operational side of it?

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2020/21 audit of National Records of Scotland”

Meeting date: 9 December 2021

Richard Leonard

We may well have the accountable officer from NRS at a future evidence session. This question may fall into the same category, but do you or your team have a view about the implications of any further delay to the census? It is planned for March 2022, but we could speculate about reasons why it might not go ahead.

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2020/21 audit of National Records of Scotland”

Meeting date: 9 December 2021

Richard Leonard

I want to pick up on that last point. Over the past couple of days, I have been looking at the ONS’s summary of how things went in the March 2021 census. The document, which was published in October, says under “Main points”:

“Census 2021 exceeded expectations, with 97% of households across England and Wales taking part”.

The document also says:

“Use of cloud architecture allowed us to scale up to meet the very high demand experienced on Census Day”.

It was the first digital-first census to be held in England and Wales. The ONS says that the system did not crash, even though

“we were receiving just under half a million census submissions per hour at the peak.”

It also says:

“The success of the Census 2021 digital service shows that large government digital services can be securely delivered in-house using cloud architecture and Agile development.”

Do you have any reflections on that?

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2020/21 audit of National Records of Scotland”

Meeting date: 9 December 2021

Richard Leonard

I apologise to Graeme Samson. We are not sure whether the problem is at our end or at his, but we cannot hear him.

The Auditor General’s undertaking to provide us with written evidence, which I suspect Mr Samson might be asked to write, is useful. I apologise to Mr Samson for being unable to hear him.

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2020/21 audit of National Records of Scotland”

Meeting date: 9 December 2021

Richard Leonard

Thank you very much.

I thank Graeme Samson—I am sorry that we were unable to hear you—Asif Haseeb and Dharshi Santhakumaran for joining us online. We very much appreciate your time and contributions this morning. I also thank, as always, the Auditor General, who joined us in person.

10:13 Meeting continued in private until 11:35.  

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2020/21 audit of National Records of Scotland”

Meeting date: 9 December 2021

Richard Leonard

I think that you also said that, because of the need to recover the census exercise, management consultants were brought in. I do not know whether it is cause or effect, but a decision was also taken around that time to widen the membership of the census programme board to include the ONS and NISRA, which oversees the census in Northern Ireland. Were they not already on the programme board?

Public Audit Committee

Decision on Taking Business in Private

Meeting date: 9 December 2021

Richard Leonard

Good morning, and welcome to the 11th meeting of the Public Audit Committee in this session. Before we begin, I remind people about the Parliament’s rules on social distancing and advise everyone that, if they are moving around, exiting or entering the room, they should wear a face covering.

The first item on our agenda is a decision on taking items 3 and 4 in private. Do members agree to take those items in private?

Members indicated agreement.

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2020/21 audit of National Records of Scotland”

Meeting date: 9 December 2021

Richard Leonard

The second item on our agenda is consideration of an Audit Scotland section 22 report on the National Records of Scotland. We have a number of witnesses with us this morning. First of all, I welcome the Auditor General for Scotland, Stephen Boyle, who joins us in the committee room. Also from Audit Scotland, we are joined remotely by Graeme Samson, senior auditor, Asif Haseeb, senior manager, audit services, and Dharshi Santhakumaran, correspondence manager, performance audit and best value. You are all very welcome.

The Auditor General usually invites his colleagues in at the appropriate juncture. However, if any of you want to come in but have not been spotted, please put an R in the chat room function. I also extend that invitation to Willie Coffey, who also joins us remotely. I will bring him in as we go through the meeting.

Before we move to questions, I invite the Auditor General to make an opening statement.

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2020/21 audit of National Records of Scotland”

Meeting date: 9 December 2021

Richard Leonard

However, the audit report from 2018-19 refers to a census recovery plan, and that was two or three years before the expected date for carrying out the census. Is it not fair to say that there were underlying problems, even before the pandemic struck?

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2020/21 audit of National Records of Scotland”

Meeting date: 9 December 2021

Richard Leonard

That is helpful. I will move on. We will return to some of the themes of staffing and support, and some of the implications of the delay.

The delay has meant that data will be delayed in reaching public sector planners—the people responsible for delivering services. The census is in no small measure designed to inform decision making about those services. Have you assessed the impact of the delay on the planning decisions that public authorities will need to make?